Full Text of Interviews #1-45

Some details have been omitted, blanked out or replaced by ‘xxxx’ for Internet distribution.

This document is an Annex to the Karen Human Rights Group report "Beyond All Endurance: The Breakup of Karen Villages in Southeastern Pa’an District" (KHRG #99-08, 20/12/99). It contains the full texts of Interviews #1-45 with villagers in and from the region, which are quoted and referenced in the above-mentioned report. These interviews were conducted by KHRG field researchers with villagers who have fled to Thailand to become refugees, villagers stranded in camps of internally displaced people in Burma because Thai authorities will not allow them to cross the border, and people in hiding around their home villages. The interviews included here were conducted between April and November 1999, and additional background was provided by incident reports gathered by KHRG researchers in the region and KHRG interviews conducted in the months preceding that period. Most of the interviews are with people in and from T’Nay Hsah, Myawaddy and Kawkareik townships of southeastern Pa’an District, though there are some interviews with people living slightly further north in Dta Greh, Hlaing Bwe and Lu Pleh townships, and one interview with a woman from far to the east in Mon State whose husband died as a porter in eastern Pa’an District. For a detailed description and analysis of the situation in the region see the main report. Photographs which relate to the situation described in this report can be seen in KHRG Photo Set 99-B (18/8/99). Order documents sent to villages by SPDC and DKBA units in the area can be seen in "SPDC Orders to Villages: Set 99-B" (KHRG #99-03, 19/4/99) and "SPDC and DKBA Orders to Villages: Set 99-C" (KHRG #99-06, 4/8/99).  For a map of the region, refer to KHRG's map of Karen Districts, or for a more detailed map of Pa'an District, see KHRG's Pa'an Map.

Notes on the Text

All numeric dates in this report are in dd/mm/yy format. In the interviews we have translated as ‘paddy’ the term for rice which has been threshed and winnowed but still has a husk, and ‘rice’ to mean husked rice ready for cooking. It takes about 2 baskets of paddy to make 1 basket of rice; villagers usually store it as paddy and only pound or mill small quantities into rice at a time. Villagers often refer to ‘loh ah pay’; literally this is the traditional Burmese form of voluntary labour for the community, but the SPDC uses this name in most cases of forced labour, and to the villagers it has come to mean most forms of forced labour with the exception of long-term portering. ‘Set tha’ is forced labour as messengers and ‘errand-boys’ for the soldiers. Villagers often refer to the KNU/KNLA as Kaw Thoo Lei, the DKBA as Ko Per Baw (‘Yellow Headbands’), and SPDC troops and officials as ‘the Burmese’. SPDC officers often accuse villagers of being ‘Nga Pway’ (‘ringworm’); this is derogatory SPDC slang for KNLA soldiers. Villagers’ exclamations such as ‘Pwah!’ and ‘Der!’ are transliterated in the text as they are pronounced. Where necessary for clarification, explanatory text has been added in italics in square brackets.

Contents

[click on any topic to go there, or view the report sequentially]

I.  Introduction

II.  Table of Contents

III.  Terms and Abbreviations

IV.  Index of Interviews and Field Reports

V.  Map 1: Karen Districts

VI.  Map 2: Pa'an District

VII.  Interviews

 

Terms and Abbreviations

SPDC                  State Peace & Development Council, military junta ruling Burma
PDC                    Peace & Development Council, SPDC local-level administration
                         (e.g. Village PDC [VPDC], Village Tract PDC, Township PDC [TPDC])
SLORC               State Law & Order Restoration Council, former name of the SPDC until Nov. 1997
KNU                   Karen National Union, main Karen opposition group
KNLA                 Karen National Liberation Army, army of the KNU
Kaw Thoo Lei   The Karen homeland, also used as slang for KNU/KNLA
DKBA                 Democratic Karen Buddhist Army, Karen group allied with SLORC/SPDC
IB                      Infantry Battalion (SLORC/SPDC), usually about 500 soldiers fighting strength
LIB                    Light Infantry Battalion (SLORC/SPDC), usually about 500 soldiers fighting strength
Viss                   Unit of weight measure; one viss is 1.6 kilograms or 3.5 pounds
Bowl/Pyi           Volume of rice equal to 8 small condensed milk tins; about 2 kilograms / 4.4 pounds
Kyat                  Burmese currency; US$1=6 Kyat at official rate, 300+ Kyat at current market rate
loh ah pay        Forced labour; literally it means traditional voluntary labour, but not under SPDC
nga pway        ‘Ringworm’; derogatory SPDC slang for KNU/KNLA people
T’Bee Met       ‘Closed-eyes’; DKBA slang for KNU/KNLA people
set tha              Forced labour as messengers and errand-boys

Index of Interviews

This index summarises the interviews used in this report. The full text of the interviews follows this table. The interview numbers correspond to those used in the quote captions in the main report which goes with this Annex. All names of the interviewees have been changed. In the summaries below, village names are only included if the interviewee has already fled the region. FL = Forced Labour, FR = Forced Relocation, LM = Landmine.

Interviews

NAME:      "Saw Lay Mu"            SEX: M                AGE: 33                Karen Buddhist farmer
FAMILY:    Married, 2 sons aged 1 and 4
ADDRESS: xxxx village, T’Nay Hsah township                                 INTERVIEWED: 11/99

["Saw Lay Mu" was interviewed in hiding in his home area.]

Q: Do you know the unit number of the Burmese soldiers who came to your village?
A: There are 50 Burmese soldiers, but I don’t know their battalion number.

Q: What did they do when they came to your village?
A: They ate all the pigs and chickens and they took some paddy with them for their rations. They also gathered much of our paddy together in one place and burned it, and they laid landmines around the paddy which was left [in the fields] so that people couldn’t dare reap it to get food. [This occurred during the October/November 1999 harvest.]

Q: Where did they gather the paddy from to burn it?
A: It was not from the paddy storage barns, it was from the hill fields. The owners were harvesting it, and when they arrived the owners ran. Then they went and gathered it [the paddy they had already cut] in one place and burned it when they were about to leave. They gathered the paddy from P---’s hill field as well as some paddy from other villages and some sticky-rice; they gathered it from 6 hill fields and 4 flat fields, 10 fields altogether. The owners [of the fields] are Po Kway, Po Gyi, Tan Pya, Po Lu Kay, Po Tad, Po Ko, Kyat Han, Po K’Law, Po Ka Hser, Po Ket and Hsah Mu. Some of them lost 5 baskets of paddy, some lost 3 or 4 baskets. Then they laid landmines around there so the villagers wouldn’t dare go back. On the day when we went to check on things, one of us was wounded by a landmine. Altogether two people have stepped on landmines. So after that no one has gone back.

Q: Who was wounded?
A: Kyaw Htoo. He is 28 years old. I was also injured with him. He was wounded at T---, near Po Kyat Han’s farmfield hut, and then he was carried to L---. That morning he wanted to go and tend his hill field and he asked me to go with him and check the path. So I went and was checking [with a stick] along the way, but the landmines were buried beside the path. He was following me, he turned and stepped off the path and a landmine exploded. I turned and looked and saw him running without one foot, and I called to him, "Don’t run!"

Q: Does he have a family there?
A: His mother is already dead, but he has a wife and 2 children. They can’t do anything to live, they just stay like that.

Q: You said two people stepped on landmines, so who was the other?
A: The other person is Pa Klu, he is 17 years old and single. He stays there with his parents.

Q: When did they step on the landmines?
A: The first [Pa Klu] was wounded on the 7^th [of November]. I know because the Burmese left on the 6^th, and the next morning he went back and stepped on the landmine. The other [Kyaw Htoo and himself] was on the 12^th [of November], just a couple of days ago.

Q: Did you have a medic or any medicine there?
A: We have a medic but we don’t have any medicines, only Para [paracetamol]. Ah! If we’d had enough medicines, I don’t think those two would have died.

Q: How long did the Burmese soldiers stay around there?
A: They came on the 30^th and stayed for a week, then they left on the 6^th [of November].

Q: Why did they come to your village?
A: I heard from Pu B--- that they will come and set up a camp there and build a motor road, at Ta Doh Ghay Hta. They will make a road from Meh Pleh Toh to Kah Hta.

Q: How many people can’t go back to their fields?
A: There were 11 families making their living from those fields. They are from xxxx [his village] but they were working fields in the hills there, and they have farmfield huts there. They dare not go and work there again now.

Q: Did they lay any landmines right in the hill fields?
A: Yes, they did. I don’t know about other places [villages], but they laid them all around the areas nearby. After two people stepped on them people didn’t dare go back again. Now those people are staying in xxxx, but they think they won’t be able to stay and they can’t buy rice to eat, so maybe they will go to Beh Klaw [refugee camp in Thailand]. For now they are helping other people, they get a basket of paddy from their friends and survive like that.

Q: How many pigs and chickens have you lost to the soldiers?
A: They ate 7 of our pigs, and so many chickens that we can’t count them all - more than a hundred. Even if they are too young or too small they eat them all. When we went back [to the village] we didn’t see any chickens. When people heard that they were coming, the villagers pulled their pigs and tied them all in the same place, and then people thought that if we saw or heard that they were coming near they would pull their pigs with them. But then they arrived suddenly and no one had time to untie and pull along their pigs, so the Burmese wasted no time in finding them. They came, they beat them all to death and they ate them. There were Bu Tah’s 2 pigs, Tan Pya’s 3 pigs, and 2 pigs from my younger sister’s house.

There are so many chickens they’ve taken that we can’t tell about it all, because some families lost 10 baskets of chickens [hens together with their chicks] and some lost 8 baskets of chickens. Each house also had 2 or 3 cocks, and we couldn’t find any of them when we went back.

_____________________________

NAME:        "Naw Hsah Paw"          SEX: F             AGE: 47           Karen Buddhist farmer
FAMILY:      Married with 2 sons and 2 daughters aged 4-18
ADDRESS:    xxxx village, T’Nay Hsah township                            INTERVIEWED: 11/99

["Naw Hsah Paw" was interviewed in hiding in her home area.]

Q: How many times have the Burmese soldiers come to your village?
A: Ah! How could I count that? This year they always come, but they just enter and go out again. Last year they set up their camp there and we had to carry water for them. Those troops were #116 [Battalion], and we had to carry water and find firewood for them until we were nearly dead. Their commander is Lah Thin, and the Battalion Commander is U Lat Aung. Their Division is from Mandalay, but I can’t remember which Division it is. Usually there are about 70 soldiers in their camp. The Battalion Commander who beats people a lot is A---. He beat the village head of T--- [village] named Pa M---, and we heard he also beat a longtail boat driver named S---, Saw A--- from Sghaw Ko, and K--- when he was carrying things by longtail boat, and many other people. He beat and abused a lot of villagers.

Q: Did Commander A--- do anything else?
A: Later he took all the porter fee money [for himself]. I would guess that all that money collected by all the [Army] groups would have been 700,000 Kyat during the 3 months that he was staying in the camp. For each month our village had to give 14,000 Kyat for each of 2 people [to not send 2 porters], so we gave them 70,000 Kyat in 3 months. He took the money from every village. Our village is only small, he demanded more from the bigger villages. From Ker Ghaw he collected for 6 people [porters] at 12,000 Kyat each, 6 people from Tee Wah Blaw, six from Tee Law Thay and six from Sghaw Ko tract, all at 12,000 each. He just took money, not people [he didn’t want the porters, it was just an excuse to demand money; in total, the 5 villages listed had to pay a total of 316,000 Kyat per month for ‘porter fees’ alone, not counting other fees]. There are other village tracts too, like Pah Klu tract, Loh Baw, Meh Pleh Wah and so on as far as Tee Wah Klay and Day Law Pya. He also beat people, and a lot of villagers from our village ran away.

Q: What did he say when he beat people?
A: He said that people didn’t listen to him when he asked for porters. He demanded porters [in addition to the fees] but how could you find them for him right away like that? He should specify a date and time for us. Not all the village heads arrived together [when called to supply porters], only Pa xxxx and Daw xxxx, so he beat Pa xxxx and he fell at the foot of the mango trees. Daw xxxx told him "Captain, don’t do that, he’s not a new Chairperson, he has been Village Chairperson for a long time. Why do you treat him like this?" And he shouted at her, "You don’t need to tell me, Mother!" Later he said to her, "I argued with you under the mango trees, Mother", and she said, "I can’t forget that because you were wrong, but we can’t do anything because we have no horns so you can do to us as you please".

Q: Did he ever capture people as porters?
A: Yes, they captured people a lot. Sometimes he demanded 10 people or 30 people from each village, took the money for that all for himself and then still called for loh ah pay. He demanded people as well as money. Sometimes when they were going to patrol to Meh Pleh and come back he took more than 10 villagers from our village.

Q: Did he ever eat the villagers’ chickens or pigs?
A: The village heads of all the village tracts had to kill a pig for him once every 4 days [by rotation]. That group never runs out of pork in their camp. When they were staying in the camp we had to send them 20 viss [32 kg / 70 lb] of pork every 4 days.

Q: Did they ever try to rape women in your village?
A: Not in our village, but we heard that Battalion #120 from Moh Ta Ma near Moulmein came and raped women in Taw Oak. Those troops shit into people’s mortars [for pounding paddy] and cookpots. There were a lot of people who had to face this in Pah Klu; the married women there said that you dared not open your cookpots because they were full of shit, and so were their [rice container] tins.

Q: Do you know the name of their commander?
A: I don’t know because they didn’t stay in our village, they just came and stayed one night and I said to him, "Son, don’t shit in our mortars." He asked me, "Where did you hear that?" and I told him, "I heard from Meh Pleh that you shat in their mortars." A lot of Meh Pleh villagers ran to escape, and Naw P--- told me "When they are drunk they come into your house with no shirts or pants on, and my husband was running around and my children were crying loudly". People wanted to go and report all this to the Division, but the Meh Pleh camp commander wouldn’t allow it.

Q: Is it just their ordinary soldiers who do these things?
A: Both their leaders and their private soldiers do it, because their leaders are no good and it is like rain dripping down from the roof of the house [the example of the officers trickles down to the men]. People say "When the head goes, the tail is pulled along" [a Karen proverb]. I told them we would go to their battalion base at Moh Ta Ma to do our own shit, and I told them, "You have very rude habits! You should know a toilet, can’t you tell a toilet from a mortar or a cookpot?" He said, "Mother, who told you this?" I told him I heard it when I was in Meh Pleh, and all the married women in Pah Klu were also talking about it. They did it in Pah Klu just for spite.

Q: Do they do things like that in your village?
A: They don’t do stupid things like that in our village because we dare to stand up to them. Whether it’s the right time or not we tell them straight, and we go to meet them before they do stupid things so they can’t do it.

Q: Did any of the troops ever make you build roads or other things?
A: U xxxx [#xxx Battalion] ordered us to build a motor road between Ker Ghaw and Kwih Lay, but the headwoman told him, "I won’t walk on this road so I don’t want to do it, because we would need petrol to use it. If you want to use it, come and build it yourself", and they came and built it themselves. Some villagers had do work for them clearing the road and cutting the scrub.

Q: When the villagers were working for them did they provide food?"
A: Aye!! When we were building their camp we had to take our own food, our own rice and our own water. They forced us to work and we had no time to rest.
Her husband: Each day someone has to go for set tha [messenger labour] and has to sleep there. We had to build a small hut and sleep alone there.
A: Yes, men have to sleep there in the camp.

Q: Do you want to talk about any other problems in your village?
A: I couldn’t tell about all the torture we have suffered since the [SPDC] camp was set up and the Ko Per Baw was founded. At first people said that if the Ko Per Baw arrived in the village there would be no more taxes, so we hoped they would come. Oh my Lord! All of our cows and bullocks were already gone. When the Burmese enter the village they are like the wildcats who clap their hands while the forest is burning [because it flushes out the prey]. If they want a handspan, they demand an armspan. So I told them, "Der! Son, when I was staying down in the town, each Battalion and Division that was going to go up patrolling at the frontline was given fees to pay porters and rations for porters. But now you come and demand it all from us, so how can we survive because we don’t even have enough for ourselves?" Then he said "What can I tell you, Mother?" Even if we don’t have enough food for ourselves, if they demand food we have to give it to them and we can’t do anything.

Q: Do the Ko Per Baw help at all?
A: They can’t do anything, and if we ask them they say, "Our footprints are not as big as theirs and we don’t dare rebuke them strongly for that". So they just deal with them gently and softly.

Q: How do the Ko Per Baw treat the villagers?
A: They don’t beat us, and if they get angry and scold us we dare to talk back to them, because they are our own nationality, whether they are big shots or small fry. But before we had [DKBA commander] Moe Kyo, and he was more rude than all the others. When he was staying in the village he burned down our stocks of straw, and he laid landmines and our villagers had their legs blown off. Po Hla Paw lost his leg to one of Moe Kyo’s mines, and Saw Kho stepped on one but his leg was not blown off. He didn’t dare beat our villagers, but we heard that he beat people in other villages.
Her husband: In Ker Ghaw, when he gave an order he wanted people to come at once, and if they didn’t arrive at once he fired a machine gun.
A: Der! The houses were full of holes.
Her husband: So people didn’t dare stay, some fled the village and fled up and down.

Q: Where is Moe Kyo now?
A: People told me that he stepped on a landmine at Paw Mo Baw, and some said that he died but others say not yet. I was very happy when I heard that he was dead, but when some people said that he is alive and they saw him I thought, "Ah ah!! My Lord, if he is still alive what will we do?" Our village is small, but he demanded porters. He said, "My son’s mother-in-law, I don’t ask much of you but it is emergency loh ah pay, so give me 15 people." And after we gave them to him, some have been gone for months and years [died as porters] so we can’t do anything. How can we replace them when they are all we have?

_________________________________

NAME:       "Saw Tha Wah"          SEX: M           AGE: 32           Karen Buddhist farmer
FAMILY:     Married, 5 children aged 10-15
ADDRESS:   xxxx village, T’Nay Hsah township                         INTERVIEWED: 11/99

["Saw Tha Wah" was interviewed in hiding in his home area.]

Q: How many times have the Burmese arrived in your village this year?
A: This year they’ve arrived nearly 10 times. When they come they don’t chase our things, but they ask for pigs and chickens and every time they eat our chickens, and one pig each time. They also took a chicken that Naw T--- was keeping for aw kheh [offerings to spirits].

In the month of October their commander’s name was Captain H---, and the troops were from #207 [Battalion]. They came and said that they will behave peacefully. They came and said that they will gather all the villagers together and do good things. They said that we must not stay in the forest, that we must all come back and stay together in the village and then they wouldn’t beat or torture us. Then after the villagers came back to stay together in the village, they gathered 30 villagers and forced them onto a truck, and forced them to go with them back to the Moei River [as porters to the Thai border]. All of them were from our village. One of them died by stepping on a landmine, not on the way but on the way back. He died when he ran to escape at Thay K’Yah.

They forced us to labour continuously, as guides and also as porters. Even if we had no money we still had to give money, and sometimes we had to give both money and pigs. The last time they arrived they demanded porters but we didn’t dare give them any people, so we gave them 30,000 Kyat in cash instead. That group was #77 [Division]. It was during October.

Q: When they demand people as porters and people can’t go, how much money do you have to give for each person?
A: It is 500 Kyat per person per day, and each person has to go [or pay] for 5 days. If we give them the money for the whole month, it is 15,000 Kyat just for porters [to avoid portering from the whole village]. Every unit that has arrived in the village has demanded that.

___________________________

NAME:      "Pati Lay Wah"            SEX: M           AGE: 47            Karen Buddhist farmer
FAMILY:    Married, 2 children aged 4 and 8
ADDRESS: xxxx village, T’Nay Hsah township                          INTERVIEWED: 11/99

["Pati Lay Wah" was interviewed in hiding in his home area.]

Q: How many times have the Burmese arrived around here?
A: The Burmese have arrived here three times already this year. They came looking for people who are staying outside the village. When they arrived in the village they ate a pig, the village secretary’s pig. They also stole people’s cookpots and chickens. They stole 2 aw kheh pots [special fancy pots for making offerings to spirits] from Po Ngan’s house, a cookpot from Po Aung Toh, and they stole a saw and two cats from Po Pee Lay. Then they demanded chickens, and if people didn’t give them they threatened them with guns.

Q: Which troops are these?
A: Their number is [Battalion] #207, and their Company Commander is T---. There were 80 soldiers, 100 altogether including the Ko Per Baw with them. The Burmese Company #x Commander is Captain xxxx, and the Ko Per Baw commander is Saw Y---. One of Captain xxxx’s soldiers with 3 chevrons [a Sergeant] from the Artillery group looted 3,000 [Kyat] in cash from K---. He didn’t ask for it; when she wasn’t in her house because she had gone to carry water, he took it from her bag. Then she asked the village head to go and ask for her money back, and he went to ask and got it back. They didn’t punish him at all after he gave that money back.

Q: What about the latest group who arrived on November 16^th?
A: They were not the same, they were from #77 [Division]. Their commander is Bo K---. There were 28 soldiers and 2 Ko Per Baw with them. They just came quietly and didn’t catch any porters. They just asked, "Do you have any Nga Pway [‘ringworms’, derogatory SPDC slang for KNLA] around here, and do they ever pass through here?" People told them, "Sometimes every 10 days, sometimes every 2 or 3 days". Then they only stayed one night and went back, and they only asked for 5 milk-tins [just over 1 kg] of rice.

Q: Did the troops who came before them look for porters?
A: The troops who came before gathered the villagers and told them, "You don’t need to go and stay elsewhere, we won’t capture porters so come back and stay in your houses. Even if you are now staying in other villages, come back and stay here again." Then they couldn’t demand any porters, so he [the officer] told me to guide them. On the way they met with another villager and they called him and made him be a guide as well. His name is Saw L---, he is 30 years old from xxxx. When they arrived at L---, he [the officer] said, "That’s not right, I told you to go that way but you have taken us a different way!" So they beat me once there, and he hit the other guide with his pistol and punched him 5 times.

Q: Who is this officer?
A: I know him, his name is T--- and he is Company Commander. He released us when they got to S---.

___________________________

NAME:      "Saw Than"         SEX: M            AGE: 43             Karen Buddhist farmer
FAMILY:     Married, two daughters aged 3 and 5, one son aged 1
ADDRESS:   xxxx village, T’Nay Hsah township                   INTERVIEWED: 11/99

["Saw Than" was interviewed in hiding in his home area.]

Q: How many times have the Burmese troops come here?
A: Since rainy season, the first group that came was #118 [Battalion], then #120 [Battalion]. After #120 had been there for 2 or 3 days, #118 went back [to their base]. The troops from #118 didn’t do anything when they came, but the troops from #120 demanded and ate people’s pigs and chickens. If they couldn’t get it by asking, they pointed guns at people and people were very afraid. So some people fled to other places. Ah! You can’t count the chickens, goats and pigs which they have eaten. In xxxx village they have eaten 50 or 60 goats and 40 or 50 pigs, but not really big ones - most of them weigh 7 or 8 viss [12 kg / 26 lb], or 10 viss. #120 [Battalion] also started to trade in logs and trees.

Q: How many soldiers are there?
A: #118 had more than 100 soldiers, nearly 200. #120 has 60 or 70 soldiers. One of their leaders is Captain Toe Aung. The #120 troops killed a villager named Du Lay Loh. They didn’t tell anyone when they captured him, and then they killed him the same day. Later people found his body in a hole and buried him. They didn’t tell any of the village elders why they killed him.

Q: Do you know other villagers who have faced them?
A: I know that they beat the driver of a longtail boat when they saw him at Ker Ghaw. His name is L---. He was beaten by Captain Toe Aung.

Q: Did they do other things?
A: They came and demanded people’s belongings and threatened people, and the married women are all afraid of them. If they can’t get things by asking then they point guns at people, so people are afraid of them and some people have gone to stay in their farmfield huts, while others have gone away. There was also one Auntie whom they didn’t like, so they ordered her to go to Ker Ghaw, and when she arrived there the Ko Per Baw arrested her, hit her once or twice and sent her to Ko Ko. She said that they beat her along the way, and her whole face was swollen. Later her brother-in-law and a monk went to give them gifts and they released her.

Q: Do people dare to face the Burmese when they come?
A: Most people do not stay in the village when they are coming. Most people have already left the village. More than a hundred people fled to Beh Klaw [refugee camp in Thailand]. People were leaving day after day. They started leaving in July and August. First they went to stay in their farmfield huts, then they went on further.

Q: Don’t the Burmese know that they are leaving like this?
A: Some of the Burmese know, but those Burmese didn’t say anything when people were leaving because if they stopped them then they wouldn’t be able to steal the villagers’ things so freely [once the people leave the soldiers can easily loot their homes and livestock]. They saw people carrying rice and charcoal to their farmfield huts but didn’t say anything about it.

Q: When did the #120 troops go back?
A: They went back [to base] at the end of September after staying in the village for a month.

___________________________

NAME:      "Taw Lay"          SEX: M                 AGE: 41             Karen Buddhist farmer
FAMILY:     Married with 3 children aged 5-14
ADDRESS:   Kwih Lay village, T’Nay Hsah township                  INTERVIEWED: 9/99

[When interviewed at the end of September 1999, "Taw Lay" had fled his village to the Thai border but could not cross because Thai troops were not allowing new arrivals, so he was living with a group of displaced people on the Burma side of the border.]

Q: When did you arrive here at xxxx? [the camp of internally displaced people on the Burma side of the border with Thailand]
A: I arrived here at least three weeks ago, before 9-9-99, but I can’t remember exactly.

Q: What happened in your village that persuaded you to flee here?
A: The Burmese Army came to our village and said they were going to force us to Ker Ghaw. They did not give us a deadline to move, but it looked like we would have to start moving by the next morning. On that night my family left our village. We did not want to go to Ker Ghaw because the Burmese told us our village was small [i.e. remote] so we couldn’t go for forced labour every month. They wanted our whole village to stay in Ker Ghaw to be closer to their camp.

Q: Which Battalion came to the village and told you they would drive you to Ker Ghaw?
A: Light Infantry Battalion #207, more than 100 soldiers. They were a new group that came to the camp, and they patrol like a mobile column. Usually Battalion #118 stays in the camp, but this one came from the lowlands.

Q: What happened to the other families in the village?
A: When I left the village in the evening the whole village hadn’t moved yet, but the next morning the whole village was planning to move. There were 51 families in the village. After the Burmese told them to move, the village heads talked to them and I heard that the villagers came back to the village. I don’t know the situation there now, but I heard that the Burmese have talked to the village head, M---.

Q: Which villages do they plan to relocate, and where will they move to?
A: In the beginning they told us that Kwih Lay, Pah Klu, and Taw Oak will move to Ker Ghaw, and the other villages of Thay K’Dtee, Thu Kee and Loh Baw would move to Tee Wah Blaw. I heard that they will move them so that they can guard them, and they will order the villagers to reap the paddy and give it all to them. But they have not moved yet. I am not sure, but I heard that people came back and stay in Kwih Lay again because the village head and the monks discussed it with the Burmese.

Q: What will the villagers do who do not want to relocate to Ker Ghaw?
A: Der! They told us that they will move all of us and that the people who do not want to go will be forced. They said that our village is too small to be able to afford porters and forced labour like big villages. Before they moved us, though, a battle occurred between Ker Ghaw and Kwih Lay. They forced villagers to carry their injured, then they detained them and kept them one night in the cell. They collected some villagers from Ker Ghaw, and five villagers from Kwih Lay had to carry. Their names are M---, who is around 20 years old, K--- who is around 30 years old, A--- who is 20, M--- who is 20, and P--- who is around 40. There were 6 Burmese soldiers who were wounded and 4 who died.

Q: Did the Burmese ever enter your village before?
A: Yes, the Army stayed in Ker Ghaw and came to our village sometimes. Usually when they entered the village they were looking for the village head to demand villagers for loh ah pay and portering. Sometimes they demanded porters for one month, sometimes for 5 days and sometimes for 1 week. Then the village head had to arrange for the porters. They usually gathered 3-5 people from our small village and if they demand 3 people for a week, 3 people have to go. The villagers went to porter because we dared not disobey. If you did not go you had to pay money: 2,500 Kyat for 5 days, or 500 Kyat per day. I had to porter 4 times already during this rainy season when people started working in the fields, and I also had to pay money when I could not go.

Q: What did you have to do when you went to porter?
A: One time the Burmese were going from Ker Ghaw to Pah Klu and I had to carry bullets, shells, and rations for them. They forced us to carry 5 shells each, and they weigh more than 10 viss [16 kg/35 lb]. I carried it because I was afraid. There were 3 of us from Kwih Lay and around 40-50 villagers from Thay K’Dtee, Toh Thu Kee, and Ker Ghaw. We had to walk two days and sleep at Pah Klu for the whole month [they had to make repeated 2-day trips throughout the month and stay at the Pah Klu Army Camp]. We had to carry our own food, but it was not enough food for me. They fed us only one bowl of rice mixed with yellow beans, which smelled very bad because they boiled it in plastic overnight. They never let us rest while we carried, and sometimes they beat the porters. One time in Pah Klu I saw them do this to one of the porters whom I knew from T--- village, named Maung A---. He dared not cross the river with his load, so the soldiers kicked him and he fell into the river. When he came back to the bank of the river on the side where the soldiers were, they kicked him again. They were from LIB #120 under Column Commander Than Aung and Company Commander Saw Toe Aung.

Q: What were the living conditions like for the porters at Pah Klu?
A: We slept under the school building at Pah Klu and they guarded us during the night. If we got sick, they didn’t care for us. The village head arranged for us to porter in turns, so when your time was up people took your place. That is why no one died on that trip.

Q: Who had to go for loh ah pay in your village?
A: If the village is small they collect more than 10 people for loh ah pay, but if it is a big village they collect about 30 people. The village head calls for one person from each house. In our village the women have to go too. My wife had to carry water for the soldiers when they needed it. Even children as young as 7 had to carry water and small things over the short distance between Kwih Lay and Ker Ghaw. They made people as old as 50, with grey hair, porter too. All of us had to carry their loads of rice, milk, pepper, salt, and other food to Meh Pleh. Sometimes we would go for the day, but sometimes we couldn’t come back in one day so we had to sleep there also. We also had to bring our own food because they didn’t feed us enough. The soldiers forced us to build their camp, dig their bunkers, and make fences.

Q: How many days did you usually have to go for loh ah pay?
A: When we arrived we worked until midday, then we took a rest and started to work again in the afternoon. If they demanded us for 5 days, we had to sleep there at their camp in Ker Ghaw.

Q: Did the soldiers ever loot your livestock when they entered the village?
A: Yes. I was with them when they entered Pah Klu village, and their Company Commander Saw Toe Aung and his column ate a lot of pigs, goats, and chickens. The Privates chased down and shot about 30 pigs to eat, and to dry the meat so they could carry it later. They didn’t pay for it, they just ate it.

Q: Did they ever eat your livestock?
A: Yes, they looted in my village also. They caught my chickens and ate one of my pigs that weighed over 10 viss [16 kg/35 lb]. They asked me for a pig, but I said "I have only one pig, so I can’t give it to you". Then they said that they had arrived without anything to eat, so he shot it and they ate it. The village head, T---, went and complained to them, but they did not give us money for that.

Q: Which Battalion was it that shot your pig?
A: I know they are LIB #207. They slept in our village.

Q: Do the soldiers ever try to sleep with women in the village?
A: Yes, in xxxx the village headwoman named xxxx always has to go and sleep with Saw Toe Aung. She is about 50 years old.

Q: Do they have sex?
A: Der! They would have sex because she has to go and sleep with him in his bed and there are just the two of them that sleep in the same place. If he calls her to sleep with him, she always has to go.

Q: Have any villagers been killed by the Burmese?
A: At the time when they entered Pah Klu while I was with them as a porter, I heard that they killed a villager from Pah Klu named Du Lay Loh. People said that he was angry because he found out that they had raped his wife, who is mute. The Burmese called him outside and killed him. He was maybe 40 years old. His wife’s name is Naw Mu Ga and she has no children. They didn’t compensate her for his death; they did nothing and gave her nothing.

Q: When you worked the wet paddy field in your village, was it enough for you?
A: When I was working my wet paddy field we could plant 4 baskets of paddy, so if we had a good rainy season we got 200 baskets of paddy and it was enough. We had to give to the Burmese when they entered the village if they demanded rice. If they arrived and their food was gone, they demanded food from the villagers and we had to give it.

Q: Do you have a quota that you have to give to them every year?
A: This year they announced that the government will gather all the paddy that we get from the fields, and then we have to go and buy it from the government. According to them, Pah Klu and Kwih Lay are ruled by them so they have the power to do this. For example, if the villagers would sell each other a basket of rice for 500 Kyat, we will have to buy it from them for 250 Kyat [i.e. the SPDC will force them to pay half of market price to get their own rice back].

Q: Do you have to pay other fees for loh ah pay or for portering?
A: For loh ah pay and portering they demand 2 villagers from each village or 20,000 Kyat per month [in addition to other forced labour demands]. This is every month, and if you don’t send the money you have to go yourself. Usually people from our village and Thay K’Dtee give money because people dare not go, but we know villagers in Kwih Lay who went because they didn’t have money to give. You had to stay at their camp and carry their baskets and loads by their side.

Q: Are there any landmines around your village?
A: In Taw Oak the DKBA set up a lot of landmines at the top of the village and beside the bank of the river. Just 2 months ago 2 women stepped on landmines when they were going fishing. One of them named Nga Bla Ree died; she was about 30 years old. The other one lost her leg; her name is Y--- and she is over 30. She still stays in the village. Her brother came here and said that they didn’t take the pieces of shell out of her leg, and no one sent her anywhere.

Q: Why did they set up landmines near the village?
A: I don’t know what their aim is and I can’t guess.

Q: Did many villagers flee the village and come with you here?
A: Before I came here I heard a lot of villagers discussing coming here. At the time when I fled and came here I came with one family from Pah Klu. Now they are staying on the other side of the Moei River [in Thailand], and they earn money by hiring themselves out for daily work.

Q: What are your main reasons for fleeing?
A: They have guns but we do not have guns, so we cannot defeat them. They have guns so they forced us to work whether we wanted to or not. Even if we didn’t want to leave we had to leave, because we couldn’t tolerate it anymore. I am very upset. We are farmers and we work in our paddy fields; if we were allowed to we would only work in our fields.

Q: Would you like to go a refugee camp?
A: I will go. First we thought that we would go to the camp, but we heard that the Thais do not allow people to go to the camp, so we would have to stay here. We stayed like this for a while and some westerners came and took our photos and then sent us a one month ration.

Q: Would you like to go back to your village?
A: Yes, I will go back if we have peace there, but now I can’t go back and I dare not.

________________________

NAME:       "Saw Ghay"               SEX: M                  AGE: 36             Karen Christian farmer
FAMILY:     Widower with 3 children aged 14-17
ADDRESS:   Tee Hsah Ra village, Myawaddy township                       INTERVIEWED: 9/99

["Saw Ghay" fled to Thailand in 1997 and stayed in a Karen village right on the border, but was forcibly repatriated by Thai troops in September 1999 and is now staying with a group of internally displaced people just on the Burma side of the border.]

Q: How long have you been around here?
A: I have stayed around here for 2 years since I left my village.

Q: Why did you have to flee your village and go to stay at xxxx [a Karen village on the Thai side of the border]?
A: We dared not stay there because the Burmese made us do forced labour, and if we couldn’t do it they kicked and beat and tortured us. Then they forced us to porter so that some people stepped on landmines and died. They forced the people who couldn’t carry to keep carrying, and if they ran to escape they were shot dead. Also they collected a lot, and even if you are poor and have no food you have to give money to them. If you didn’t give it they would abuse and torture you in many different ways. So we dared not stay and fled here.

Q: So now you are staying at xxxx?
A: Now I still stay at xxxx, but just a few days ago people forced us to move back to this side [Burma side of the border]. Last month some Thai villagers who are friendly with us came and invited us to work in their fields for hire. So we went to the other side to work, but we come back and sleep here.

Q: Who forced you to move?
A: The [Thai] police. They came just a few days ago and told us, "You can’t stay here anymore and you have to go back and stay there." They forced us to move within one day, so people separated into groups and ran. We stayed on the bank of the river until our Karen leaders here told us to come back and build our huts here, and they took care of us.

Q: Are there more people from your village here?
A: We don’t have new arrivals from my village because they have all gone to Beh Klaw [refugee] camp already. They dared not stay and face all of the demands and torture, so they fled here, too. Some villagers still stay there because they are working on their paddy fields and can’t leave. But after they finish working more villagers will flee here.

Q: Did the Burmese have a camp in your village?
A: They didn’t set up a camp in the village, but they have their camp on the hill at Boh Tan Kee, about one furlong [200 yards] from the village. They enter the village once a week to demand the villagers’ livestock. They come to eat the cattle and buffalos, and they do not pay.

Q: How did they torture people in your village?
A: I saw many people who were killed, and they cut some people’s ears while they interrogated them. They slit the ears of this man from Taw Oak named P---. When I met him they had beaten and tortured him until his shit fell down his pants. They cut his ears with a knife. They captured him while he was sleeping in his house in the village. When people were sleeping at night time, the Burmese came out of the forest and captured people. So they called down all the people and touched them with their guns, and people were afraid and followed them. They beat and kicked and tortured the people who they thought were strange until their urine and shit came down.

Q: Were you ever beaten by them?
A: They didn’t beat me, but I had to porter for them to Tee Hsah Ra. It was last summer in Water Festival month [April 1999], when we had gone back home. I started to carry at Taw Oak because I went to sleep there. I was staying with my daughter, and my youngest daughter was sick that night. Then they came out of the forest, they entered the village in the night and the dogs didn’t even bark at them. They arrived and fired their guns for a while. He captured me and touched me with his gun. He wouldn’t even let me urinate, he ordered me to go so I had to go. Some people who could run to escape didn’t need to go, but the people who they captured in the group all had to go. If you had 2 or 3 people in your family, they all had to go. They beat and kicked the people they captured before us. Then they went to Tee Hsah Ra, and they forced us to send them there. They forced me to go and carry bullets and shells for them. I had to carry a big 3A gun, the long kind. It must have weighed 30 viss [48 kg/105 lb], because I had to carry it but I couldn’t even lift it over onto my other shoulder. They fed us rice and we ate it with pounded chillie paste, while the soldiers cooked [meat] curries for themselves and ate them together. But all the porters had to eat was pounded chillie paste. They forced us to go between them and they walked in front of us. They guarded us at the place where we slept because they worried that the porters would run to escape. We couldn’t dare run to escape because they were sleeping around us.

Then they released us, but we were afraid to go back because they had set up a lot of landmines on the way, so we had to follow the way that we had come. We asked some villagers who work in their hill fields to show us step by step. We went back to sleep in Tee Hsah Ra for one night, and then we came back here.

Q: Did anyone die while portering?
A: They killed many people on the way when they came up here last year, but I don’t know their names. I didn’t see it, but there is still a bad smell along the whole way. I heard it from my nephew who escaped from portering and now stays in Tee Hsah Ra; his name is L--- and he is 20 years old. They killed both Burmese and Karen that time, including villagers from Tee Hsah Ra, Meh Pleh, and Kway Sha.

Q: Are you afraid to stay here?
A: Right now we dare to stay here, but if people send us to the refugee camp we will go. If the Burmese come and shoot at us, we’ll have to run to the other side of the river, and when the dry season arrives [in November/December] we dare not stay here because we will be afraid of the Burmese again. [The troops are less mobile in the rainy season.]

_________________________

NAME:     "Pu Tamla"             SEX: M            AGE: 60+                  Karen Animist farmer
FAMILY:    Married with 5 children aged 20-30, one already died
ADDRESS:  Taw Oak village, T’Nay Hsah township                       INTERVIEWED: 9/99

[When interviewed at the end of September 1999, "Pu Tamla" had fled his village to the Thai border but could not cross because Thai troops were not allowing new arrivals, so he was living with a group of displaced people on the Burma side of the border.]

Q: How old are you?
A: Almost all my hair is grey, and I can’t tell you exactly but I think nearly 100 years old. How about you look at me and guess how old I should be? Maybe I am around 90. You can tell I am 95 years old.

Q: When did you come to stay here?
A: I came here in July, over 2 months ago, and stayed at xxxx. All of my family came here. My family and B---’s family and C---’s family came at the same time.

Q: Why did you leave your village?
A: Because the Burmese tortured and oppressed us. My daughter and grandchild stepped on landmines and died, so we dared not stay. If we had stayed longer, all of them would die because they tortured us a lot. My daughter stepped on a Ko Per Baw [DKBA] landmine and died 2 rainy seasons ago. She was 20 years old, and her name was Naw Sher Pa. They set up landmines at Kwih Baw Nee, not so far away, about one hour’s walk. They set them along the villagers’ path to trap their enemies. She died on the path and we went to see her. She had gone with her friend and her older sister, but her sister just got a wound on her leg under her knee. My daughter and my two-month-old grandson and a guest from Tee Hsah Ra village died right away. The guest was named Naw Shu, and she was around 50. They were coming back to the village at the time. It was at the time when the Burmese came to attack this side [to attack the KNLA east of the Dawna Mountains, near the Thai border] that my daughter was killed by a landmine.

Q: Was your daughter married?
A: She had a husband and two children. The other child stays with me now, and her husband comes back and looks after it sometimes.

Q: What happened to your elder daughter who was injured?
A: The Ko Per Baw [DKBA] did not look after her, so people from here sent her to the hospital. They cut off her leg under her calf. She can walk now because people made a foot for her. She stays at someone’s house on the Thai side, and she married someone in Thailand. I don’t know if he is Thai, where he is from, or what his name is.

Q: When this happened, were you staying in the village?
A: We dared not stay because the Burmese oppressed us, so we were working and surviving in the jungle. When the Burmese attacked our place and came with guns to abuse us, I moved to the jungle. I stayed in my hill field hut, about 5 furlongs [1 km] from my village. We always had to go to find food in our village. We went back to find tobacco, betel leaf, and vegetables.

Q: Have you known of any villagers that the Burmese have killed?
A: Yes, in Pah Klu. They shot one villager dead under his house, but I can’t remember his name. It was 3 years ago. In May [1999] they killed one villager named Saw Eh Kway. They met him on the road and captured and killed him. He stayed at Taw Oak and was 25 years old. They thought that he was a soldier, but it was not true, he was really a villager but just a bit abnormal [mentally handicapped]. The Ko Per Baw [DKBA] killed him when they saw him along their way.

Q: Do the Ko Per Baw [DKBA] stay in the village?
A: Yes, they cooperate with the Burmese. They abuse the villagers, and people fear them when they make threats against people. They capture the villagers and torture and beat them, and the villagers can’t tolerate it so they leave the village. They demand people to carry things. The Ko Per Baw [DKBA] force villagers to go portering, to carry paddy and rice for them. They had to carry to Kler Baw Kloh [site of the DKBA camp] from Taw Oak. They demanded 4 or 5 people, and sometimes 10 or 15 people, every month. They accuse the villagers of portering for Kaw Thoo Lei [KNLA] whenever Kaw Thoo Lei demands it, but not for them - so the Ko Per Baw say that the villagers must be Kaw Thoo Lei themselves.

Q: If you didn’t go, could you give money?
A: Yes, villagers have to give money if they can’t go. Some who dare not go have to hire others for 300 Kyat a day. People carry each day and go and sleep there at night. In the next morning they come back to the village.

Q: What if people are too sick to go but also have no money?
A: Der! If they have no money they have to go in person. They beat the people who don’t go and then they charge them money. But if they are not well, the Ko Per Baw [DKBA] can’t do anything about that. Sometimes they forgive you and sometimes they don’t.

Q: Do you also have people who go for portering?
A: Yes, loh ah pay is just one day of carrying rice, and if you go for 7 days it is portering, and then you are replaced. For 7 or more days you pay 1,500 Kyat [if you don’t go], and they collect 10 or 15 porters. They take more money depending on the quality of your house.

Q: When you stayed in the jungle, did the Burmese or Ko Per Baw [DKBA] ever arrive at your place?
A: Yes, the Ko Per Baw [DKBA] arrived one time and touched us with guns. The Burmese were also involved. When they arrived at the hut, they pointed their guns and ordered us, "Don’t run away." We dared not run because they were close to us. Then they said, "Have you seen T’Bee Met?" ["Closed-eyes", DKBA term for Karen soldiers] I said I hadn’t seen them. They started to frighten me and said that the day before they had passed through our area. I told them that they hadn’t come, but they continued, "Uncle, tell the truth. If you do not tell the truth you will face many problems." So I told them the truth that they had not come, and then they pulled me down toward the path, and when we arrived on the path they asked me again, "Do they [KNLA] come often?" I told them, "We haven’t seen them", but we were lying to them because some people from here were our friends and sometimes they did come. They told me again, "Tell the truth", and they kicked me one time on my back and slapped my face twice. I fell down into a gully. We said, "They do not come often. Sometimes once a month or once a week." Then they didn’t beat me anymore, and they released me and told me to go up to the house.

Q: Do you know the name of the Ko Per Baw [DKBA] who beat you?
A: Yes, I know him. His name is K--- from Ker Ghaw. He is a commander and has 3 chevrons [sergeant]. He came with ten people, but I don’t know what [battalion] number they were. Three Burmese soldiers came with them, but the Burmese didn’t do anything, they just pointed at me with their guns. They didn’t beat my family, just me because I am the head of the family. They shot and killed one of my hens. They burned down the hut of B--- where soldiers sometimes stay, then W---’s hut because it was a soldier’s hut. We were staying with Karen soldiers, but I was staying far away from that hut.

Q: Do you know what the plans of the Burmese are?
A: I have not heard about it because they didn’t tell us, but now they are coming up more and more to trade their logs.

Q: Did you have many problems on the way here?

A: We couldn’t carry all of our things, and we had to sleep on the path with the children and babies. I slept one night on the way, and we came with soldiers. Karen soldiers brought us.

Q: Now how do you get rice?
A: People provided rice for us, so we eat it. We also hired ourselves out to earn 100 Baht to buy one big tin of rice.

__________________________

NAME:       "Naw Paw Htoo"           SEX: F            AGE: 27             Karen Christian farmer
FAMILY:     Married with 1 child aged 6
ADDRESS:   Taw Oak village, T’Nay Hsah township                         INTERVIEWED: 9/99

[When interviewed at the end of September 1999, "Naw Paw Htoo" had fled her village to the Thai border but could not cross because Thai troops were not allowing new arrivals, so she was living with a group of displaced people on the Burma side of the border.]

Q: Can you tell me why you came here?
A: Because when we were staying there we couldn’t meet their demands, and also it was difficult for us to get enough food. We fled here to hire ourselves out and to stay with our parents.

Q: Do you have any relatives still staying in Taw Oak?
A: One of my aunts was still staying in Taw Oak, but she went down to stay at xxxx. She wants to come but she can’t because her mother’s legs are in pain and the Burmese shot and killed her husband. My aunt has 3 children and when we fled here she said that they will come, but they have not come yet.

Q: Why did the Burmese kill her husband?
A: He went into the forest to find some vegetables to eat, but he didn’t know that the Burmese [LIB 331] were staying along the path waiting for them, so he went down to enter the village and when the Burmese saw him and his friend, they shot the two of them dead. My uncle’s name was Per Ta Lu and he was 32 years old. His friend was Pa Mu Dah, who was only 15 years old.

Q: How did you know that they had shot them?
A: We knew it because they came carrying their bodies in blankets and bags. They said that they made a mistake by shooting them, but they were dead already, and these dead people were villagers. They were carrying vegetables when the soldiers shot them dead. They did not accuse anyone of anything because they had not shot Kaw Thoo Lei [KNLA], they had shot villagers.

Q: What type of things did the Burmese demand from you in the village?
A: Ah hoi! They came and looted money from us. The Burmese collected money for their nation and after that they ate it. They collect fees for portering, loh ah pay, and other charges. Our village is small with only 30 houses, so they collect over 20,000 Kyat per month, but that is only enough for porters’ fees so they charge for other things too, like loh ah pay. It is a lot. They come and collect it once a month, usually 25,000 Kyat.

Q: Do you have a village head in Taw Oak?
A: Before we had one, but now I think that the village head ran away already. The village head always changes once a year. The villagers elected xxxx.

Q: How many people did they collect for loh ah pay, and what did people usually have to do?
A: For loh ah pay they demanded people once a week, sometimes for 5 or 6 days at a time. Sometimes it was 5 or 10 villagers who had to go at a time, then others would replace them. If they [the soldiers] were staying nearby and if there were many of them, it was once a week, but if they went back [to their main bases] it got better. They have camps at Meh Pleh and Kway Sha and come up to stay in our village sometimes. They are Battalion #331, there could be 300-500 soldiers because when they came there were so many in the village and outside the village, too.

Q: Did they collect fees if people couldn’t go for loh ah pay?
A: Der! All of the villagers have to give, and the people who can’t give have to sell their rice and paddy to give money to them. Each family has to hire someone for 1,000 Kyat or more per time; some families have to give 2,000 Kyat. They don’t care about young or old people; young and old all have to go. They force children as young as 10, and some people who go are 50 or 60 and have grey hair already. Some people who went came back and told us that they hadn’t eaten for 4 or 5 days. As for me, I was afraid and I didn’t go, also because I am a woman and mostly men go. In our village other women have gone, but I never went.

Q: Did they ever beat people who went to work for them?
A: Yes, we had people who were beaten by them a lot. They beat P--- when he went to carry for them for loh ah pay and portering. They beat and kicked him because he didn’t have enough food and couldn’t follow them. The soldiers get good enough food so they can walk quickly, but he had to carry a lot of bullets in a basket that weighed about 20 or 30 viss [32-48 kg/70-105 lb].

Q: Did any villagers die while portering?
A: Yes, we had one villager from our village who died, but I don’t know his name.

Q: What do they do when they enter the village?
A: When they enter the village they eat pigs and hens, and they come and steal all the villager’s belongings. They don’t ask for it, and if they ask the owner and the owner doesn’t give it to them they kill it for themselves and nobody dares to complain. If you talk back to them they point their guns at you. They ate one of my hens but I dared not say anything to them. I stayed quiet, and their commanders also scolded us the way they do. Der! The privates and their commanders eat together. They eat the villagers’ pigs and chickens and they don’t pay for it.

Q: What about the villagers’ rice?
A: They demand and collect one big tin of paddy, and if people don’t give them one big tin they have to give half of one. If the villagers don’t give at all they step into the house to get it and pound it. Under the house villagers have a big mortar [a large wooden bowl for pounding rice; the pounder is attached to a log levered in the centre, operated by stepping on and off the opposite end]. They pound it by themselves and we dare not say anything. I don’t know if they have their own rice or not, but they loot it from the villagers and pound it themselves.

Q: Have they beaten any villagers in Taw Oak?
A: Yes, they beat and tortured a villager named P---, who is around 30 years old. The commander ordered it and the privates beat him. They accused him of being Kaw Thoo Lei [KNLA] and working with them. He was never Kaw Thoo Lei, and he told them that but they did not accept it, so they sliced his ears. They beat him horribly with a stick in the village, and we dared not go to look because we were staying outside the village. Now he is not strong enough to carry anything.

Q: Have they ever killed any villagers, besides the ones who died while portering?
A: Yes, I have just 2 brothers and 2 sisters and one of my brothers was shot to death by the Burmese. They killed him in April 1997. At the time he didn’t know that the Burmese were waiting on the way, so he was coming back to the village with his friends and some children. One child’s leg had been broken and she walked slowly, so they were still walking late at night. They were coming back at night and the Burmese were staying along the path through the mountains. The Burmese shot at them and two of them died. The other one’s name was Naw K’Nu [a woman]. All in all there were more than 10 people with them: Naw K’Nu, her husband, their children, my brother, and three of his friends. The Burmese captured all of them after they shot the two.

The Burmese didn’t say anything afterwards, because they couldn’t do anything since he was shot already. Maybe they could have done something, but the Burmese are like that - they shoot first and think later, and you can’t bring people back to life. After the people ran away, they took the belongings that they had left. My brother’s friend was with his wife, and she was shot. They took all the woman’s belongings, like shirts, clothing, pots, and other things.

Q: What happened to the people they captured?
A: They captured them and beat them while they interrogated them because they had been coming back at night. Then they took them to Thay K’Yah, and after that they released all of them, including the 3 children.

Q: Did your brother have a family yet?
A: Yes, he had one child but it died. Now his wife has gone to stay in xxxx [refugee] camp. My brother was 21 years old when he died.

Q: What happened to the family of the woman who was killed, Naw K’Nu?
A: Her husband was there too, and after she was dead for a year her husband was captured by the Burmese again and they killed him, too. Now one of their children stays with her grandmother at xxxx, and another stays in xxxx [refugee camp], but the youngest one died of illness. After the child was dead, the Burmese captured their father [Naw K’Nu’s husband] and killed him. His name was Maung Thaw Pay and he was 35 or 36 years old. He died 2 years ago, at the same time that the Burmese killed my uncle.

Q: Why did the Burmese kill your uncle?
A: They accused him of being this and that, but he was not anything. The Burmese had already shot and killed his wife. They shot him and then they beat him to death.

Q: Did you also have Ko Per Baw [DKBA] in your village?
A: When I left my village the Ko Per Baw were not in the village, but after I fled here people said that they came and stayed there.

Q: How many families in Taw Oak have fled and come here?
A: I don’t know right now how many [Taw Oak] families are staying here, but I think around 10-15. Many people are fleeing to come here continuously. We are many families, some stay here and some went to stay at xxxx [refugee camp].

Q: When did you arrive here?
A: I arrived on the 13^th of May [1999]. I left the village when the Burmese weren’t in the village, because they don’t like us to go out and they don’t allow it. We fled secretly. I slept 2 nights along the way. We had to cross the main road of the Burmese and look carefully as we went.

Q: Now are you having problems with the Thais at xxxx [across the river on the Thai side of the border]?
A: Just recently people told us that the Thais would come and drive us out and we had to run. I was staying on the other side of the river [in Thailand] to hire myself out for money. I get 50 or 60 Baht per day to buy rice to eat. But somebody told us to run from the Thai soldiers, so we had to run back here [to the Burma side of the river]. It was on the 15^th or 16^th of August when they said that we were disorderly and had to move.

Q: Why did they ask you to leave?
A: I don’t know, they just told us that because a lot of people had fled there [to Thailand] it was causing trouble, and they ordered the villagers to move back. They came and stayed for 3 or 4 days, and when they left we went back, too. They don’t want us to stay there. When we first arrived back there they didn’t know about us, but after a while more and more of our friends came. Now they know about it, so they drove us back here again because a lot of people came to stay there. They said it is messy so we had to move. They said, "Don’t come and stay here for a long time" because it is their land.

Q: Did you get food from anyone since you’ve been here?
A: Some people [foreign relief organisations] came and provided a rice ration for us twice already.

Q: What is your decision? Will you stay here or go to the camp?
A: Der! It is up to my community where we will go. We will stay here and go across [to Thailand] to work and earn money like this, and if they come we will run back here, and come and go like that.

Q: Do you know of anyone who has gone into the refugee camp?
A: At the time when I arrived here none of the people who came with us went to the refugee camp.

Q: What about the first group that arrived?
A: Yes, they went to the camp, but we haven’t heard about them yet.

Q: Are you worried about the Burmese Army coming through here?
A: Der! We have to think about it whether we stay here or not! We will have to worry in the dry season [starting in November]. If the situation is not better by then we will run again, but I don’t know where to run to.

__________________________

NAME:       "Saw Lay Htoo"           SEX: M            AGE: 42            Karen Buddhist farmer
FAMILY:     Married with 1 child aged 1 year
ADDRESS:   xxxx village, Hlaing Bwe township                             INTERVIEWED: 9/99

[When interviewed at the end of September 1999, "Saw Lay Htoo" had fled his village to the Thai border but could not cross because Thai troops were not allowing new arrivals, so he was living with a group of displaced people on the Burma side of the border.]

Q: Can you tell me why you fled and came here?
A: We could not work and earn our living because the Ko Per Baw [DKBA] and the Burmese tortured us and forced us to do labour. If people couldn’t go for them they kicked and beat them, and sometimes killed them. They shot to kill the people who ran away, so we dared not stay and fled here.

Q: Have you ever had to porter?
A: I never went to porter for the Burmese or Ko Per Baw [DKBA]. I dared not go because I always used to follow the Kaw Thoo Lei [KNLA].

Q: So you cooperated with Kaw Thoo Lei?
A: