Papun Interview: Saw H---, March 2011
This report contains the full transcript of an interview conducted during March 2011 in Bu Tho Township, Papun District, by a villager trained by KHRG to monitor human rights conditions. The villager interviewed Saw H---, a 34-year-old hillfield farmer and the head of N--- village. Saw H--- described an incident in which a 23-year-old villager stepped on and was killed by a landmine at the beginning of 2011, at the time when he, Saw H--- and three other villagers were returning to N--- after serving as unpaid porters for Border Guard soldiers based at Meh Bpa. Saw H--- also detailed demands for the collection and provision of bamboo poles for construction of soldiersí houses at GkíTer Tee, as well as the payment of 400,000 kyat ((US $ 519.48) in lieu of the provision of porters to Maung Chit, Commander of Border Guard Battalion #1013, by villages in Meh Mweh village tract. These payments were described in the previous KHRG report "Papun Situation Update: Bu Tho Township, April 2011." Saw H--- also described demands for the provision of a pig to Border Guard soldiers three days before this interview took place and the beating of a villager by DKBA soldiers in 2010. He noted the ways in which movement restrictions that prevent villagers from travelling on rivers and sleeping in or bringing food to their farm huts negatively impact harvests and food security. Saw H--- explained that villagers respond to such concerns by sharing food amongst themselves, refusing to comply with forced labour demands, and cultivating relationships with non-state armed groups to learn the areas in which landmines have been planted.
Interview | Saw H--- (male, 34), N--- village, Meh Mweh village tract, Bu Tho Township, Papun District (March 2011)
The following interview was conducted by a villager in Papun District who has been trained by KHRG to monitor human rights conditions. It is presented below translated exactly as it was received, save for minor edits for clarity and security. This interview was received along with other information from Papun District, including ten other interviews, one situation update and 98 photographs.
How long have you been serving as village head?
I started in 2011, about three months ago.
What are your responsibilities as village head?
I donít know. Iíll know once Iíve worked [as village head] for a longer time.
Was it your wish to become village head or did the villagers or an organisation appoint you?
When I started [as village head] in 2011, the Border Guard demanded [villagers] to go and porter. We went and, after weíd come back and had slept two nights, I was asked to take over the position [as village head]. The previous village head was afraid to continue in the position after a villager suffered an injury when we were returning [from portering].
Howíd he get injured?
He got injured by a landmine. His name was K---.
Did he die and how old was he?
Yes, he died. He was about 23 years old.
Did he have a family?
Yes, he had a family. He had two children.
Did he get injured on the Border Guardís hands [under their responsibility]?
Did the Border Guard take care of him?
No, they didnít take care of him.
So his wife and children will be in big trouble now?
Yes, very big trouble.
Donít the Border Guard look after them [K---ís wife and children]?
Do the villagers look after them?
Yes, the villagers look after them.
Do the three of them rely on anyone or does anyone support them?
She [K---ís wife] relies on her parents.
How many days has it been since he died?
Itís been three months.
What problems have you seen K---ís family face since he died?
His children became ill. She [K---ís wife] canít work. The [youngest] child was a month old when he went [to porter for the Border Guard] and got injured. His youngest child was only a month old. The older child is a year old.
Did he die instantly when he stepped on the landmine?
No, it took an hour and 45 minutes [before he died].
Where was he injured?
He was injured at Ny---, in the jungle on the old road. He was returning [to N---village] when he was injured.
Where did he have to porter [the supplies for the Border Guard]?
To Meh Bpa [Border Guard camp].
How many people did he go with?
He went with three [other] people, slept for seven days and came back.
Did people [the Border Guard soldiers] hire [pay] him to go and porter?
Did you go too?
Did any fighting take place along the way when you were portering?
No fighting occurred.
What did you have to porter?
We went to porter and guard baskets of gklo tha [bullets and mortar rounds].
How heavy was [each basket]?
About ten viss (16 kg. / 35.2 lb.) and over.
Were bullets the only [things you carried]?
Bullets and [cooking] pots.
Do you know the Border Guard unitís battalion number?
It was Company #5 led by Ba Yoh.
Were any Burmese [Tatmadaw] soldiers with you when you portered?
Did they arrest you to get you to porter or ask permission from the village head?
They asked several village heads to each send four villagers [to porter] from their villages.
Did the Border Guard come and send you back [to N--- village]?
No, they didnít send us back. We started to head back by ourselves and went back to get them [after K--- stepped on the landmine] and then they came.
How far is it to where the incident took place [at Ny---] from the Border Guard [camp at Meh Bpa]?
Itís a two hour walk.
How far is it to where the incident took place from your village?
I donít think we can reach the hill [at Ny---] in a day from our village.
Do you know who planted the landmine he stepped on?
I donít know, but they [the Border Guard soldiers] accused the KNU [Karen National Union].
Didnít you come back by the same way when you went?
We went back along an overgrown shortcut. We came back on the old road. They [the Border Guard soldiers] said: "You donít need to worry, we already cleared the road." K--- stepped on the landmine at 7:00 am.
How large is the hole of the blast?
About one cubit around.
Which of his legs was injured?
His right leg.
Did the Border Guard provide medical treatment when he got injured?
Not right away, but they did after one and a half hours. About ten minutes after he started to receive treatment, he died. He died on the way when we were carrying him back [to N---].
Did you bury him along the way or when you reached your village?
We buried him [along the way] at C---.
How far is it from where you buried him to your village?
Maybe a ten or eleven hour walk.
Why didnít the Border Guard come back along with you?
I donít know.
Do they work together with the Tatmadaw and get their salaries from the Tatmadaw?
How much do they get paid per month?
I heard [someone] say an officer will get over 400,000 kyat (US $519.48) starting from this month [March 2011].
How much did they get before?
Before, they got 360,000 kyat (US $467.53).
How much do privates get?
A private got 66,000 kyat (US $85.71) before, but now they get 160,000 kyat (US $207.79).
What about a position of Thra [non-commissioned officers in the army]?
I donít know. I just heard what I know from other villagers when I went and portered.
How many people [soldiers] were there when you went and portered?
The group we went and stayed with didnít have a lot of people [soldiers]. There were about 20 or 25 Border Guard soldiers.
Did they [the Border Guard soldiers] tell you what their objectives were, where they would go and what they would do?
They said they had to go and guard the [Burma-Thailand] border. They said theyíd set up checkpoints and collect taxes. Then, they said, KNU [activities] will decrease [become weaker or halt].
There wasnít any fighting when you went to porter?
Did they provide you with food when you portered for them [the Border Guard]?
Yes, they did, like pork and goat meat.
Did they buy it [the food]?
Yes, they bought [the food] when I portered for them. I donít know about after, whether they bought or not.
Did they let you sleep in a good place?
Yes, they did.
Did [Border Guard] soldiers follow you back after you went to porter?
No, they [Border Guard] soldiers didnít follow us back. We went on our own. I donít know about set tha this month. [They] said theyíll stop [demanding set tha]. I wonít hire [other people to go as set tha instead] whether they stop [demanding] or not. I canít afford to [pay other people to go] anymore.
Have you gone [to porter] for them [the Border Guard] since that person stepped on the landmine?
What did you do instead?
I hired other people [to go instead].
How much do you have to pay [in lieu of portering]?
They said we could pay 200,000 kyat (US $259.74) per month.
How much does your village have to pay per month?
My village pays [to avoid sending] three people.
Just your village?
We pay together with another village, so it costs a total of 400,000 kyat (US $ 519.48).
How much does your village pay?
130,000 kyat (US $168.83).
How many households are there in your village?
There are seven households.
How much money do you collect from each household?
13,000 kyat (US $16.88). No, not 13,000 kyat, because there are just seven [full] households. There are ten households [if you] include those of widows.
I want to ask you more about the person killed by the landmine. Whatís the biggest problem his familyís now facing after he died?
The biggest problem they face is [lack of] money. They also donít have enough food and canít even afford things like salt and chilli, but thereís nothing they can do.
Does the Border Guard not provide any support to the family after he died?
Do active [armed] groups in the area use landmines a lot?
I donít know about that.
What about the areas around you? Are there many places that you were told not to go?
I dare not to say anything about the other side of T--- because T--- is a different [area], but around here, we can still move about [freely]. Neither black nor yellow [Karen National Liberation Army, KNLA, nor Democratic Karen Buddhist Army, DKBA] use [landmines]. We can still travel. They let us know if they plant [landmines]. So far theyíve said nothing.
Is your village named N---?
Yes, itís called that by Burmese. We call it E--- [in Karen].
Are there ten households?
How many people live in the village?
I donít know. I canít tell you because I didnít bring my notebook. There are many villagers.
What do they do to make a living?
They cultivate hill fields and cut and sell bamboo. They donít do logging but they harvest bamboo.
Do they all have enough food?
No, they donít all have enough food. Most of them donít have enough food.
Where do villagers who donít have enough food go and get food?
They cut bamboo and sell it to earn money. Sometimes people buy it, but sometime people donít buy it. So they just have to go and borrow food from their brothers and sisters [friends and families]. They just look after each other in this way.
Is there a way to do business?
No, thereís no way.
When was N--- village founded?
The village was founded after dta keh dtaw tha [literally, Ďthe incidentí] occurred. Before, when L--- village was established, people were already living here. Then people came [from L---] and founded the village when the DKBA was formed.
Has your village faced problems since the time you became a village head?
No, thereíve been no problems.
Have the Tatmadaw and Border Guard come here?
No, they havenít come, but they did come in the past.
Have you heard of the Border Guard or Tatmadaw killing any villagers within the past few months?
There were no killings, but they beat [a villager].
Whoíd they beat?
His nameís Pa G---. Heís 22 years old.
Who beat him, the Border Guard or Tatmadaw?
It was the one who defected and a lin way [literally Ďentered the lightí; the phrase Ďjoined the legal foldí is also used commonly used in this context to refer to soldiers that defect from the KNLA and join government or government-allied troops] to Bo Tu Ghaw [a DKBA officer]. I think, maybe he [the one who defected] was a local force commander or second in command. It happened in 2010 when people attacked Ta Bper Pa [area]. He beat him [Pa G---] while he was carrying a wooden plank.
When did they beat him?
I donít remember the month. It was DKBA [soldiers that beat him].
Yes, it was in 2010.
Have they abused your villagers since you became the village head?
Did you enter any villages when you went and portered for the Border Guard?
We entered to Nyat Tat Law, Wah Muh Law, Htee Ghay Law and Wah Day Mu village.
Did you see or hear that they looted things from villagers when they entered the villages?
Did they rape any villagers?
No fighting happened when you went and portered for them?
Can you tell me more about the Tatmadawís and the Border Guardís operations; like if theyíre planning anything?
Now, Iíve heard nothing about that. When I went and portered, they [the Border Guard soldiers] said: "I eat [get] Burmese salary, so Iíll do what I want. Villagers have to give [me things] when I ask."
Is there any [army] camp close to your village?
No, thereís no camp [nearby]. Their [the Border Guardís] camp was abandoned when they went to Meh Bpa.
Was the camp named Meh Mweh Hta [Daw Mweh]?
Yes, it was Meh Mweh Hta camp.
When did they move?
They moved about four months ago because it was almost a month before we had to go and work for the Border Guard. So itís at least three months ago.
Do any forced labour demands still occur for things like cutting bamboo and delivering thatch shingles?
Yes, yesterday they [the Border Guard ordered us to cut trees and bamboo. My village has to cut 100 bamboos poles, but the KNU said not to give them to them, so we wonít do it.
Where did they say youíd have to carry the bamboo poles to?
To GkíTer Tee [Ka Dtaing Dtee].
Will they pay you if you deliver them?
They said they wonít pay.
Would the KNU [KNLA] let you go to deliver the bamboo if they paid you for it?
Yes, theyíd let us go if they paid.
How far is it from your village to GkíTer Tee?
It takes about two hours by boat. It takes half a day on foot.
Do you know the name of the [Border Guard] leader in GkíTer Tee?
I donít know whether the leaderís changed or not now. I havenít been there [for a long time].
They asked you to cut bamboo. What are they going to use it for?
They said theyíll build houses for the soldiersí wives and children.
Do you think what theyíre doing is correct?
No, I think itís wrong.
I think that they should do [those things] on their own because they receive a salary.
What should they do when they ask for things from you?
I think they just oppress civilians.
What should they do when they ask you for something?
They just oppress civilians.
Should they buy things because they receive a salary?
Actually, they should do when they take from civilians, but it seems like theyíre trying to kill civilians and destroy civiliansí lands and the KNU organisation.
Can they destroy the KNU?
No, itíll never be destroyed.
Do you think they [the Border Guard soldiers] will get a salary from the government for their whole life or not?
Itís like a small fish being fed to grow bigger. People will eat it when the time is right to eat it [meaning the Tatmadaw will use the Border Guard soldiers whenever they need them]. They wonít [get a salary] forever.
Do they [the Border Guard soldiers] still demand set tha and portersí fees?
They said theyíll stop [making these demands], but Iím not sure whether theyíll stop or not.
Who said theyíll stop?
Pa U---, he said heíll stop.
Whatís Pa U---ís [real] name?
His [real] nameís Pa U---.
Have you gone to meet him since you came back from portering?
How many times have you collected money [to pay porter and set tha fees]?
Once to cover two monthsí payment.
How much is a monthís fees?
200,000 kyat (US $259.74).
Does just your village have to pay?
No, my village gave 130,000 kyat (US $168.83) for each month and 270,000 kyat (US $350.65) came from R---, so it added up to 400,000 kyat (US $519.48) [each month].
Who did you go and give the money to?
I went and gave the money to a villager, a set tha. He went and gave it to Maung Chit [Commander of Border Guard Battalion #1013].
How will they use the money? For something else, for themselves or for hiring porters?
I donít know whether theyíll hire porters or not. He said there are porters. He just needs money [to pay the porters].
Is there a school in your village?
Yes, the school goes up to the third standard.
Who founded the school, was it the villagers?
Yes, the school was founded by the villagers.
No other organisation was involved?
How many teachers are there?
Before, there were two teachers. Thereís only one now.
Where did the teachers come from?
They came from E--- [N---].
They werenít from an organisation or the SPDC government?
How much do you pay for a yearís student fees?
Each student has to pay 10,000 kyat (US $12.99) for a year.
Is the teacher single or married?
Is there any special support [for the teacher]?
Yes, the teacher receives support from above [groups], but I donít know how much.
How many students are in the school?
There are 13 students.
Can they study freely? Have there been any disruptions to their schooling?
I have two children. My youngest childís schooling has been disrupted due to illness. My oldest child hasnít been disrupted since he began school. He went to school until he finished all the standards.
Do KNLA, Border Guard or Tatmadaw soldiers come and give you trouble?
Can they [the children] go to school if those groups come?
Yes, they can.
Can they teach Karen language in school?
Yes, they teach Karen, Burmese and English.
Do the students get support from outside, like pens and notebooks?
Yes, it [support] comes from above, from the KNU.
Is there a medic in your village?
No, it had one. But it was K---, the one who already died. He could cure people and we know him as medic.
How did he become a medic? Is he from the Tatmadaw or did he learn on his own?
Heís a civilian.
Can you work freely in your village? Can you travel freely?
We can move around [freely], but not too far.
Why donít you dare go too far?
Because of the obstacles posed by the Tatmadaw and the Border Guard. They question you and they close the river, like they did recently, so we canít visit places downstream.
What about your work? Are there any obstacles to go and do your work?
There is no obstacle now.
Could you go and sleep at your farm hut last year?
No, we couldnít go and sleep at our farm huts in 2010.
Who stopped you?
The Border Guard, although they hadnít yet become the Border Guard at the time. They were still the DKBA.
What did they say if you went and slept at your farm hut?
Theyíd say that you were the spy of the black scarves [the KNLA]. Theyíd shoot you if they saw you. Theyíd kill anyone who tried [to sleep in the huts]. You could only bring enough food for yourself [to the huts].
Could you leave food in your farm hut?
No, you couldnít. You had to bring back the pot too. They didnít allow you to build walls on your farm hut [so they could easily see in].
Do you think what they did was correct?
No, they shouldnít do this. As I believe, the way the fighting is done must be done in a different way. They canít say they fight for the country if they fight in this way. Actually, we live and we have to work to make a living, farming and sleeping in our huts. This is our job. As we know, theyíre fighting to destroy our livelihoods.
Do they really fight to destroy civiliansí livelihoods?
Yes, my farm cropís been nearly totally destroyed.
Was your crop a success or was it destroyed by natural [causes]?
No, itís not going well. It was destroyed by rain and eaten by wild pigs. People also are afraid to go and harvest their crops. Nature [the weather] isnít the same as itís been before. So itís become a root cause of the problems villagers face. A lot of paddy has been lost. People who normally get 100 baskets (2090 kg. / 4608 lb.) are now only getting 70 or 80 baskets (1463 kg. / 3225.6 lb. or 1672 kg. / 3686.4 lb. respectively) whereas some people who used to get 140 or 150 (2926 kg. / 6451.2 lb. or 3135 kg. / 6912 lb. respectively) are now only getting 100 baskets. Itís not the same as before. There isnít enough food. As for my farm, it was eaten [by wild pigs] and destroyed by heavy rains, so I didnít get any rice at all.
Have you seen the Tatmadaw or the Border Guard come and do development projects in your village in any way?
Are there any other issues you want to tell me about?
I have many things that I want to say about my village. Iím always faced with difficulties like sickness. I donít have money to buy medicine or enough food. The other problem is the Tatmadaw. They oppress [villagers]. Recently, they ordered me to meet them and then they demanded a pig. I had to pay for the cost [of buying the pig].
When did [the meeting] happen?
A few days ago.
Have you already collected the money [to pay for the pig]?
Yes, I already collected 1,000 kyat (US $1.30) from each household.
Was it [the Border Guard Commander] Pa U--- [who demanded the pig]?
Yes, it was Pa U---.
How many villages do you pay together with?
Weíre three villages: O---, R--- and E--- village.
How much does a pig cost?
50,000 kyat (US $64.94).
[Two questions redacted for security purposes.]
How much does a big tin of rice (16 kg. / 35.2 lb.) cost?
Last year, a big tin of rice was 7,000 kyat (US $9.09).
How much does a viss of chicken cost?
One viss of chicken costs 5,000 kyat (US $6.49).
What about a viss of pork?
A viss of pork costs 2,000 kyat (US $2.60).
What about [a viss of] goat meat?
2,500 kyat (US $3.25).
Is there anyone raising animals in your village?
But you raise animals for yourself?
No, even me, I donít keep animals. I donít have many chickens. I just have one or two. I donít have a pig, goat or cows. Some people have one or two to plough their farm. They donít have any animals they can sell.
Further background on the current situation in Papun District can be found in the following KHRG reports:
 KHRG trains villagers in eastern Burma to document individual human rights abuses using a standardised reporting format; conduct interviews with other villagers; and write general updates on the situation in areas with which they are familiar. When conducting interviews, villagers are trained to use loose question guidelines, but also to encourage interviewees to speak freely about recent events, raise issues that they consider to be important and share their opinions or perspectives on abuse and other local dynamics.
 In order to increase the transparency of KHRG methodology and more directly communicate the experiences and perspectives of villagers in eastern Burma, KHRG aims to make all field information received available on the KHRG website once it has been processed and translated, subject only to security considerations. As companion to this, a redesigned website will be released in 2012. In the meantime, KHRG's most recently-published field information from Papun District can be found in the Report, "Papun Situation Update: Bu Tho Township, May to June 2011," KHRG, February 2012.
A viss is a unit of weight equivalent to 1.6 kg. or 3.52 lb.
 A cubit is a standard measurement of the length commonly referred to in Karen as the length from oneís finger tips to oneís elbow, about 18 inches / 45.7 cm.
 All conversion estimates for the Kyat in this interview are based on the fluctuating informal exchange rate rather than the governmentís official fixed rate of 6.5 kyat to US $1. As of January 11th 2012, this unofficial rate of exchange was US $1 = 770 kyat . This figure is used for all calculations above.
 6 In Karen the term normally used to describe non-commissioned officers (NCOs), such as corporals and sergeants, is Thu Thra.
 Set tha is a Burmese term for forced labour duty as a messenger stationed at army camps or bases and serving as a go-between to deliver orders from army officers to village heads, but also involving other menial tasks when no messages are in need of delivery.
 According to a KHRG researcher, when villagers refer to Ďdta keh dtaw thaí or Ďthe incidentí they mean an incident in which the village was directly attacked, as a result of the scorched earth policy of Ďpya ley pyaí, literally Ďcut the four cutsí, which was a counter-insurgency strategy employed by the Tatmadaw as early as the 1950ís, and officially adopted in the mid-1960ís, aiming to destroy links between insurgents and sources of funding, supplies, intelligence, and recruits from local villages. See Martin Smith. Burma: Insurgency and the Politics of Ethnicity, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999 pp. 258-262.
 The 1994 split in the KNLA resulted in the formation of the DKBA, the subsequent fall of KNU headquarters at Manerplaw and, according to a KHRG report published at the time, impacted the lives of tens of thousands of villagers in the surrounding areas, as villages were destroyed or forcibly relocated and villagers fled across the border to seek refuge in Thailand. See SLORCíS Northern Karen Offensive, KHRG, March 29th 1995; KHRG Commentary, KHRG, February 5th 1995. For background information, see Ashley South, Ethnic politics in Burma: States of conflict, p. 57 Ė 58.
 Bo is Burmese prefix meaning Ďofficerí.
 In a report previously published by KHRG in September 2011, a villager trained by KHRG to document human rights abuses described the levying of 200,000 kyat porter fees on Meh Mweh Hta village tract, following a meeting with Battalion Commander Maung Chit from Battalion #1013. See "Papun Situation Update: Bu Tho Township, April 2011 ," KHRG, September 2011: "If I have to describe the problem in detail: a unit of the DKBA [Democratic Karen Buddhist Army] who agreed to become Border Guard Battalion #1013, led by Battalion Commander Maung Chit Ö came to Meh Nyaw monastery to hold a meeting on January 15th 2011. Every village from Meh Mweh Hta Ö had to come and attend the meeting. In the meeting, Battalion Commander Maung Chit from Battalion #1013 decided that Meh Mweh Hta village has to pay money [in lieu of providing] two porters and the total amount of money is 200,000 kyat (US $271). The village would have to pay this every month. There are about 50 households in Meh Mweh Hta, so this has become a big problem for the villagers."
 In Karen, the Burmese phrases Na Ah Pa (SPDC) and Na Wa Ta (SLORC) are commonly used to refer to the Burmese government or to Burmaís state military, the Tatmadaw. Many older Karen villagers who were accustomed to using the phrase Na Wa Ta (SLORC) before 1997 continue to use that phrase, even though the SLORC has not officially existed since 1997. Similarly, despite the official dissolution of the SPDC in March 2011, many Karen villagers continue to use the phrase Na Ah Pa (SPDC) to refer to the Burmese government or to the Tatmadaw; see: "Mission Accomplished as SPDC Ďdissolvedí," Myanmar Times, April 4-10th 2011. The term Na Ah Pa was used by the villager who conducted the interview and interviewee, and "SPDC" is therefore retained in the translation of this interview.
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