Interview Annex
to
CONVICT PORTERS
The Brutal Abuse of Prisoners on Burma’s Frontlines

An Independent Report by the Karen Human Rights Group
December 20, 2000 / KHRG #2000-06a

This Annex is intended as a supplement to the main report; for a detailed analysis of the information in these interviews, see "Convict Porters", KHRG report #2000-06. Some details in this report have been omitted or replaced with ‘xxxx’ for Internet distribution.

This document is an Annex to the Karen Human Rights Group report "Convict Porters" (KHRG #2000-06, 20/12/00). It contains the full texts of Interviews #1-12 which are directly quoted and referenced in the main report. These interviews were conducted by KHRG field researchers with convict porters who had fled the SPDC Army in Pa’an and Dooplaya districts of Karen State in June and July 2000. Some supporting information and corroborating interviews (not included in this Annex) were also provided by the field offices of the Federated Trade Unions of Burma (FTUB). Photos of some of the convicts interviewed can be seen in KHRG Photo Set 2000-B (18/10/00). While this report focuses on the experiences of the convict porters, readers may also want to see the following KHRG reports for further information on the areas where they were used as porters: "Starving Them Out: Forced Relocations, Killings, and the Systematic Starvation of Villagers in Dooplaya District" (KHRG #2000-02, 31/3/00), and "Beyond All Endurance: The Breakup of Karen Villages in Southeastern Pa’an District" (KHRG #99-08, 20/12/99).

Notes on the Text

The interview numbers used below correspond to those used in the quote captions of the main report. In the interviews, all names of those interviewed have been changed and some details have been omitted where necessary to protect people from retaliation. False names are shown in double quotes.

This document consists of this preface, a summary of terms and abbreviations, an index of all interviews presented, and the full text of the interviews themselves. All numeric dates in this report are in dd/mm/yy format.

Table of Contents

You may scroll down sequentially through this report (with the exception of the Maps) or click on any section heading below to go directly to that section.

SPDC           State Peace & Development Council, military junta ruling Burma
PDC             Peace & Development Council, SPDC local-level administration
                   (e.g. Village PDC [VPDC], Village Tract PDC, Township PDC [TPDC])
SLORC         State Law & Order Restoration Council, former name of the SPDC until
                   November 1997
KNU            Karen National Union, main Karen opposition group
KNLA          Karen National Liberation Army, army of the KNU
Nga Pway    ‘Ringworm’; derogatory SPDC slang for KNU/KNLA
DKBA           Democratic Karen Buddhist Army, Karen group allied with SLORC/SPDC
IB                Infantry Battalion (SLORC/SPDC), usually about 500 soldiers fighting strength
LIB              Light Infantry Battalion (SLORC/SPDC), usually about 500 soldiers
                   fighting strength
LID              Light Infantry Division (SLORC/SPDC), 10 battalions for offensive operations
Sa Ka Ka      Abbreviation for SPDC’s Military Operations Commands,
                   for offensive operations
Viss             Unit of weight measure; one viss is 1.6 kilograms or 3.5 pounds
Bowl/Pyi      Volume of rice equal to 8 small condensed milk tins;
                    about 2 kilograms / 4.4 pounds
Kyat             Burmese currency; US$1=6 Kyat at official rate, 300+ Kyat at
                    current market rate
loh ah pay    Forced labour; literally it means traditional voluntary labour,
                    but not under SPDC
ICRC             International Committee of the Red Cross
Won Saung   Camps created by the SLORC/SPDC to provide pools of convict porters
                    for the Army

Index of Interviews

This index summarises the interviews used in the main report, using the numbers which also appear in the quote captions of the main report. All names of those interviewed have been changed. In the summaries below, WS = Won Saung, FL = Forced Labour, Under ‘Nat.’ (Nationality), K = Karen, S = Shan, B = Burman, M = Mon, P = Palaung, C = Chinese.

Full Text of Interviews

To give further detail and examples of the complete stories of convict porters from several prisons, we have included below the full texts of Interviews #1-12 which were used in the main report. The interview numbers correspond to those used in the quote captions of the report.

NAME:          "Myo Myint"               SEX: M          AGE: 30               Mon, Buddhist, Barber
FAMILY:        Married, one child 7 years old
ADDRESS:     xxxx town, Mon State                                               INTERVIEWED: 7/00

[He was a prisoner in Moulmein Prison in Mon State. He suffers from asthma and needs regular medication, but was taken as a porter regardless. He was interviewed after escaping portering in Dooplaya District.]

Q: Did you study?
A: I studied for two years at the monastery from when I was 8 years old until I was 10 years old. It was in Kyaikmayaw township. I worked with my mother in the flat fields. After I was 15 years old, I was a barber in Moktama.

Q: Are your parents still alive?
A: Yes, they are both flat field farmers.

Q: Do you have any siblings?
A: Yes, I have five brothers and sisters. I am the eldest. The youngest is 16 years old.

Q: Did you have a barber shop?
A: Yes.

Q: When did you get married?
A: I got married when I was 19 years old. She is a flat field farmer in yyyy [village].

Q: Why have you come here?
A: I was imprisoned and had to porter.

Q: Why were you in prison?
A: I had cut three bunches of bananas in my Auntie’s garden and sold them. When I came back I let my Auntie know about it. She asked me what I did with the money and I told her I bought cooking oil, onions and salt to eat. That is why I cut them. I said, "I don’t have enough to eat." She said, "Okay." Five days later, her husband went and complained to the police and the police came to arrest me. In the middle of the night, five policemen came to arrest me. I didn’t know who they were, but I thought they were the police. They ordered me to lay face down, so I laid face down. When they opened the mosquito net, I cut with a knife and one of their heads was cut off. Then I jumped out the window, but they arrested me and sent me to the police station. It happened on June 6^th 1993.

Q: Was the person who died a policeman?
A: He was a policeman. They had brought guns and I didn’t know if they would shoot or not, so I was afraid and cut him.

Q: Did you cut his head off?
A: Yes. During the uprising [the 1988 student protests] the students kept a lot of long knives at my house. When the students from Rangoon came and asked me to send them from Moktama to Moulmein, they left their knife, so I took it.

Q: Where did they take you?
A: They put me in a cell at the Moulmein Division Office [This is the main government office in Moulmein, the capital of Mon State]. They prosecuted me and sent me to a court of law. They set up a tribunal in the jail cell. There were three judges, but I don’t know their names. I was in the prison for four days before they set up the tribunal.

Q: How did they feed you?
A: They gave us a little rice and some boiled morning glory leaves. In the morning we ate that and in the evening we ate aubergine.

Q: What cell were you in?
A: I was in cell number 3.

Q: Did they torture you?
A: They tortured me. They kept me upside down and they put me in electrified water. When the water hit me, I fell down. They did it to me for 10 minutes. After they shocked me, I was unconscious. They interrogated and beat me. They did this to me for a week, every day. Later, after I couldn’t suffer it anymore, I admitted my guilt. It was the corporal who tortured me. I don’t know his name, but he had two chevrons. After that, on August 28^th 1993, they passed judgement on me. I was sentenced to 10 years at hard labour in Moulmein Prison.

Q: What article were you sentenced under?
A: Article 380 for cutting [stealing] the bananas and Article 302 for murder.

Q: When did you go to Moulmein Prison?
A: On August 28^th 1993.

Q: Did the ICRC come to check Moulmein Prison?
A: They came to check it, but I didn’t know who they were. They were English [white foreigners are commonly referred to as ‘English’] and Burmese. The young men and women foreigners came. The young women were wearing trousers and had long hair, they were tall. They were not the same as the Burmese, their skin was white. They [the prison officials] kept us in a room, Building 4. We had to queue up. We could see them [the ICRC representatives] walking below us. We had to stay in the building. I wasn’t seen by them when they came [he wasn’t questioned].

Q: Do you remember when they came?
A: I don’t remember when it was. They came two or three times.

Q: Did the foreigners question the prisoners?
A: They didn’t ask anything. They didn’t enter the building. They looked over everything from the outside and walked around. They questioned the prisoners who had been in prison for many years. They kept the prisoners with long sentences separately. I don’t know what they asked.

Q: Did you know in advance that the ICRC would come?
A: I didn’t know.

Q: Before these people came, how did you prepare the prison?
A: The leaders would come so we had to clean.

Q: Was there anything unusual on that day?
A: It was a little better on that day. After they left, it was the same as before.

Q: Were their any Shan nationality in Moulmein Prison?
A: There were six Thais for drug offences, horse medicine [amphetamines].

Q: How many prisoners were in the prison?
A: There were over 700 prisoners.

Q: How many days did you have to go for treatment when you were in prison?
A: I had to get treatment in the hospital for over three months when I stayed in prison. We had to buy the medicine ourselves and treat it. People from my house brought it. The prison gives a ticket, but they don’t give medicine. If we go and ask for medicine for five days, they give us one tablet of Para [Paracetamol]. I got only one tablet of Amino [Aminophaline]. The one tablet of Amino didn’t cure my disease. I got better when I got an intravenous injection. I got a ticket from them and the people from my house bought the injection and gave it to me. When I came to porter, I had 8 more phials of Amino intravenous injection [to take]. To get the injection, we had to buy food for them [the prison officials].

Q: How much money did you spend on medicine?
A: The price for the medicine was over 3,000 Kyat for the three months.

Q: Who gave you the injection?
A: The doctor from the hospital gave it to me. I only had to buy the medicine and the needle. We used our needle only one time. They used their needle for a month. They didn’t boil it after giving the injections.

Q: Did they continue using it?
A: Now, for scabies, they gave one phial of 200,000 units [I.U., International Units] to 6 people. For 8 people, they used only one needle. They injected them one by one.

Q: Did the disease get better?
A: The disease didn’t get better, it got worse. The prisoners who were almost dead were taken outside the hospital. They couldn’t walk. They had only skin and bone left and their eyes were shrunken. The wounds got worse and the scabies became like leprosy. There were both children and older people [suffering from this]. [The symptoms described here are also those of the final stages of AIDS. With the reuse of needles and the high rate of HIV infection in Burma it is very likely that many of the prisoners are infected.]

Q: How many prisoners died?
A: When I was in the prison, about 50 prisoners died. They died from that disease.

Q: Did the prisoners get diarrhoea?
A: Yes, because they didn’t get enough food. Water was boiled and then cut spinach was put in the water. They fed us like that.

Q: Were there any Army deserters in the prison?
A: When we asked the children they told us about it. We asked, "Younger brother, what happened to you?" They said, "Brother, we went out with our friends, then the police arrested us." We asked, "Why did they arrest you." They said, "They forced us to be soldiers, but we didn’t want to and we cried. They took us and fed us snacks. We had to go to the frontline." We asked, "When you went to the frontline, could you carry?" They said, "I couldn’t carry but they carried it for me. I came back home and didn’t go again, so they put me in prison for 10 years." Those children were only going out to have fun. I don’t know their names. They had just been put in prison when I left. They were from Rangoon. They were Burmans. They said they were from #62 [Infantry Battalion] in Mudon.

Q: Were there any political prisoners in the prison?
A: Yes, there were many students in the prison from the uprising. They had been imprisoned since the student uprising. There are many men and women, but nobody can see them. They are kept separately. They are not kept the same as with the other offenders. They keep the women upstairs.

Q: Where did they keep the men?
A: They kept them in a special room. They can’t go anywhere and are kept fully covered [they are kept inside where no one can see them]. The are fed 10 times more than us.

Q: How many people were kept in each room?
A: They kept six people in each room.

Q: Did they torture and beat the prisoners?
A: When the new prisoners are brought in they know nothing. When they [the older prisoners] ordered us to work, we couldn’t do it. They ordered us to take the Main La [excrement] by hand. When we go to the toilet, we have to pass into a jar, then throw it into a hole. It is then taken from the hole and thrown on the plantation [the prison garden]. We have to take it with our hands. Really, they have a cup, but they need the money, so they forced us to do it by hand [they want people to bribe them to get out of this work]. If we don’t take it by hand, they beat us. If people from home come, the older prisoners ask for money and they have to give. The older prisoners don’t need to work.

Q: How much do you have to pay them?
A: I had to pay more than 2,000 or 2,500 Kyat.

Q: When you first came to the prison, did they beat you?
A: Yes, they beat me. I don’t remember how many times they beat me. They were the same prisoners as us. They were the ones with long sentences.

Q: Did you beat the prisoners who came after you?
A: I didn’t beat them, I just cut their hair. Whenever my mother came, she would admonish me and say, "Stay well and you will be released when the time comes. Take care of your health." Whenever she came, she admonished me. She came every six months. When she came she couldn’t give a lot of money. She would give me only 500 or 600 Kyat. My wife and mother work in the flat fields. I cut hair.

Q: How did you eat in prison?
A: Eating was a problem in the prison. We had to eat the standard prison food. They fed us half a milk tin of cooked rice. If a farmer ate it, he would have gotten only three mouthfuls. They also fed us Ta Ler Baw [a type of rice soup with whatever vegetables are available] curry.

Q: Did they give you mosquito nets and blankets?
A: There were none of these things. When we entered the gates of the prison, they confiscated everything. They gave us things like short pants. We had to wear white cloth.

Q: Could you go out?
A: We couldn’t go outside, we had to stay in the room. We could talk to the other prisoners in the same room.

Q: Did they give you work to do in the prison?
A: They gave us work. We worked in hill fields and plantations growing spinach, potatoes, aubergine and cabbage. We worked in the morning from 7 to 9 a.m. and later from 1 to 3:30 in the evening.

Q: Could people come to visit you?
A: People could come to visit and bring some food.

Q: Where did you start as a porter?
A: From Moulmein. They sent me to Pa’an Won Saung 1 on May 24^th 2000. They took us with the prison trucks. We went on the Zathabyin road, but I didn’t see anything because they covered the truck fully with a tarpaulin. We stayed there for 3 days and on the fourth day, May 28^th, we left there together with the soldiers by truck to Kya In Seik Gyi. We slept one night in Kya In Seik Gyi. At first we slept in the teaching school, but later there were many people so they separated us and kept us outside the village. In the morning we had to start to carry.

Q: Did they reduce your sentence if you went?
A: They said they would release us if we went. If we had been sentenced to 10 years, then our sentence would be reduced by 3 years. It was specified by the SPDC. They didn’t do it.

Q: How many prisoners were at Pa’an Won Saung when you arrived?
A: There were over 500 prisoners.
Second man: There were about 30 or 40 people from Lashio [the prisoners from Lashio say 150].
A: There were prisoners from Moulmein and Rangoon. There were about 30 or 40 people from Moulmein and 90 or 100 from Rangoon.

Q: Did they give you any clothes?
A: They gave us some clothes when we were in the prison, but when we left, they confiscated it all. We didn’t get anything when we left there.
Second Man: When we left the prison, they gave us slippers and blankets for when we were portering. When we arrived at Pa’an Won Saung , they confiscated it all. They said they would give it back to us when we left, but they gave us nothing when we left.

Q: Who confiscated it?
A: It wasn’t the Army unit, it was Pa’an Won Saung 1 A’Kyin Oo See Hta Na [Prison Control Centre].

Q: Which battalion did you have to go with?
A: LIB #710. They are from Taikkyi, but their camp is at Kyaikdon.

Q: How many prisoners did they take to Kya In Seik Gyi?
A: They took all 500 or so prisoners from Pa’an Won Saung 1. They took everyone at once. They were leaving from the night until daybreak. I went at daybreak. Most of the prisoners had left by then. There were 40 prisoners in our group. After we arrived at Kya In Seik Gyi, they divided us into groups of 6 or 7 people.

Q: Did they also force villagers to porter?
A: No, there were only the prisoners.

Q: Were there also Army deserters from the prisoners?
A: Yes, but I don’t know how many.

Q: Did any political prisoners have to go as porters?
A: No, they didn’t. They don’t dare to let them out. They worry that they [the political prisoners] will go against them.

Q: Where did you continue to from there?
A: We slept there for one night, then we had to go continually for 12 days. I had to carry for 8 days. We slept two nights on one hill and another two nights on another hill.

Q: What did you have to carry?
A: I had to carry 12 bombs [Rocket-Propelled Grenade rounds]. I don’t know their name, but they were very big and round. It looked like a banana flower and the tail was very long, about a cubit [45.72 cm / 18 in]. I think it was nearly 40 viss [65.32 kgs / 144 lbs]. I couldn’t stand up. They had to lift it for me.

Q: Did you see any porters who couldn’t carry things and fell down?
A: Yes, one of the Chinese fell down in front of us. He was over 50 years old, maybe 58. We thought he couldn’t stand and walk because he had fallen down and was laying face down on the road and trembling. He had taken off his shirt and was nearly dead. When we asked the porters who came behind us about him, they said he was already dead when they passed him [see Interview #3, Interview #4 and Interview #7]. Two people died. One of my friends also couldn’t carry and died on the path .

Q: Did you see them beat, scold or call the porters names who couldn’t carry?
A: I suffered that myself. When I was walking in the night time, there was no light and I fell down. He [one of the soldiers] didn’t lift me, he kicked me. He pulled the basket and it fell out of my hands. He told me, "Your body is very big, but you are not useful." I told him, "No, Saya, I came out of the hospital not so long ago." He then hit me three times on the back and my back hurt. I still have the wound [he then showed his wound]. When I carried the basket, it was very painful. I had to suffer and carry it in the night.

Q: How did they feed you when you were a porter?
A: They fed two big spoonfuls of rice, one spoonful of beans and a little fishpaste. I wasn’t full.

Q: Who was in charge of the convict porters?
A: He was a sergeant, but I don’t know his name.

Q: Who was the column commander?
A: I don’t know. We had to stay beside them and they would call us when it was time to eat.

Q: Did they give you any money?
A: No they didn’t.

Q: Did they give you any medicine when you were sick?
A: They didn’t give medicine. When we had been sick for three days and asked them for medicine, they gave us half a tablet of Para [Paracetamol].

Q: Did the soldiers go in the day or the night?
A: Both, they didn’t have an exact time.

Q: What did you have to do when they rested?
A: When they made camps [along the way], we had to find firewood and cook rice. We also had to search for vegetables for them. When they slept, we didn’t have a tarpaulin, so we had to sleep in the rain.

Q: Did they keep you together?
A: They kept us together, but they didn’t guard us. We had to sleep in the middle and they slept around us. They were worried that we would flee.

Q: Did any battles occur along the way?
A: There were no battles.

Q: Where did you come to?
A: We fled from Kyaikdon. I had never been to or heard of Kyaikdon before. We slept there one night and then the next day, we fled. I fled with "Phone Shwe" [Interview #7]. He is also here. He is a Shan Da Nu. We discussed it before. We fled in the night time at 1 a.m.

Q: Did you know what was here?
A: We knew there were Karen soldiers. We also heard the Burmese say they were going to fight the Karen soldiers. No battles had occurred though.

Q: Why did you flee?
A: After suffering the beatings and pain in my heart, I fled. I fled together with "Phone Shwe" who was sick. We escaped at around 1 a.m. We brought nothing but the clothes on our bodies.

Q: Where did you go when you fled?
A: After we crossed the main river and walked for a while, we came to xxxx and took a rest for a night. We slept there one night and then fled again. We came to the flat fields. We asked for help in the flat fields. We didn’t have sarongs or clothes [they only had their prison uniforms]. They [the villagers] also didn’t have any, but they gave us some rag clothes to wear and some rice. In the evening they sent us to xxxx. [Some details of their escape are omitted here to protect the people who helped them.]

Q: Was this close to the SPDC soldiers?
A: It wasn’t close, but when they came, we fled and hid on the mountain. After three days, the Karen soldiers came during the day to take us.

Q: How many soldiers were there?
A: There were about 8 or 10 soldiers. The villagers were talking about them, but I didn’t understand anything.

Q: Were you afraid when you saw the Karen soldiers?
A: We were more happy to see them than the Burmese soldiers. When I first saw them, I was afraid.

Q: How did they treat you?
A: They treated us as their siblings. They didn’t interrogate us, scold us, or call us names. They said, "Brother, put your hands behind your back. We will tie them with a little bit of rope." We said, "Yes, tie us." We were tied for four days. They told us they had not received orders from their senior leaders yet [to release them]. We were tied well, but they didn’t beat us or call us names. On the first day I was worried a little bit. Later, they came to explain to us in the night time. They said, "Nothing will happen, don’t be afraid. Don’t worry. We won’t kill you. We will report to the higher leaders, then we will question you and send you back home."

Q: Did they feed you?
A: They fed us well. They gave us chicken and pork. We could sleep as they slept.

Q: When did you arrive here?
A: We came field by field, camp by camp. From when I was portering until I came here, it has been over one month.

Q: What do you want to do in the future?
A: The most important thing is I want to go home.

Q: Do you have contact with your family?
A: I don’t have contact with them.

Q: Do you want to say anything in your heart?
A: I don’t have anything to tell.

Q: How many years were you in prison?
A: Seven years.

Q: Were you close to being released?
A: Yes, if they had decreased the sentence, I would have been released and I wouldn’t have had to porter. I didn’t get a Kwa [a reduction in a prison sentence] because I had to go to get treatment in the hospital. I have asthma. I got one reduction before after five years. They didn’t reduce it, so I had to porter.

Q: Do you want to go back if you can?
A: Yes, if I can go, I want to go back. Before I go back, I will find money to travel. I’d dare to go back and stay in my village if I get to yyyy. I don’t need anything, but my weak point is my asthma.

______________________________________________________________________________

NAME:         "Than Htun"               SEX: M          AGE: 46           Karen, Buddhist, Labourer
FAMILY:       Married, three children aged 5 to 12 years old
ADDRESS:     xxxx section, Mandalay                                        INTERVIEWED: 6/00

["Than Htun" was imprisoned in Mandalay Prison. He escaped from portering in Pa’an District of Karen State.]

Q: Can you tell me how you arrived here?
A: I was sentenced to prison for a year because I gave someone a bicycle as collateral to borrow money. I did it for a friend, but it was a stolen bicycle. My friend had brought someone’s bicycle with him and said, "Ko Gyi [Big Brother], pawn this bicycle for me, it is my bicycle." I believed him and did it for him. My friend was a Burman named aaaa. He is about 18 or 19 years old. The police came and arrested me because it was a stolen bicycle, and they accused me of profiting from stolen goods. I was punished by being sent to prison for a year. My friend also had to go to prison in Mandalay. I had stayed there for seven months already, but at the beginning of the eighth month, they sent me here because I could not give any money. They [the Army] came and called us from the prison.

Q: What did you have to do in prison?
A: When I was in prison I had to dig the ground and plant and water flowers, cabbages and other vegetables. Those are the only things we had to do in prison.

Q: Could you eat what you had planted?
A: Yes, they cooked them for other people. We had enough food in prison, but it was not very good food.

Q: Did they beat and kick the prisoners?
A: Yes, they beat and kicked people if they didn’t listen to orders. They asked the other prisoners to beat us.

Q: Did the Army or the Police take you from the prison?
A: The Army asked for us, so the police took us to the Army unit. It was on May 18^th [2000]. That unit was Brigade #22 [Light Infantry Division #22], Battalion #81 [Infantry Battalion]. I don’t know the name of their commander. They usually called each other Bo Gyi or Saya Gyi [words used by soldiers addresings officers], so we don’t know their real names.

Q: How many prisoners did they take from the prison?
A: All of the prisons sent prisoners, so there were around 500 people. They divided us and sent 25 people to each battalion.

Q: How much money did you have to give to not go?
A: If we could give 5,000 or 10,000 Kyat, we didn’t need to go. In two more months I would have been released. I was to be released after ten months because they had decreased my sentence. I just needed to stay there for two months to be released, but they sent me here.

Q: Where did they divide you?
A: After we left the prison, we went to the Army camp to be divided. They gathered all the prisoners from Mandalay and Meiktila prisons together. There were about 500 prisoners at that time. They divided us at Pa’an Won Saung 2. They divided all of us and gave us to the Army units, so the Army units took us and ordered us to carry loads over the mountains. They ordered us to carry shells, bullets and rations. If we could not climb up the mountains, they beat and abused us. Some of the porters’ arms were broken and one porter died at that time.

Q: How heavy was your load?
A: We had to carry 30 or 40 viss [48.99 kgs / 108 lbs or 65.32 kgs / 144 lbs]. We had to carry shells, bullets and bags of rice. There are about 8 bowls of rice in a bag [12.504 kgs / 27.56 lbs].

Q: Did they take the bags of rice from the villagers or their Army camp?
A: They got those bags of rice from over there [the Army camp they left from] as their rations. After we arrived at their Army camp, they ordered us to gather all the paddy from the Karen villagers’ hill fields and to take it to the top of the mountain. They ordered us to pound that rice on the top of the mountain.

Q: How many soldiers were in the unit you went with?
A: There were approximately 200 soldiers. That is including the majors, captains and sergeants. There were 25 [prisoner] porters for them and 25 villagers carried for them also.

Q: Do you know the names of any of the soldiers?
A: We don’t know and we couldn’t ask their names because if we asked their names they scolded us and asked us why and slapped our faces. They shouted at us, "Ma Aye Loe [Motherfucker]. Do what we order and what you need to."

Q: Were you the only Karen among the prisoner porters?
A: Yes, among the 25 prisoners I was the only Karen person, but I stayed with the Pa Tee [Uncles; a Karen term referring to middle-aged men] and villagers on the way. Those Pa Tee and villagers ran to escape also. They were the Karen people who stayed in some of the villages here. They were also captured by the Army unit.

Q: They had prisoners already, but they also took villagers?
A: Yes, they also captured people from the villages. They were mostly men. They had also called women to go with them and at one time they had over 50 women with them. There were 25 or 30 women with them from the villages and they were ordered to carry rice bags. At the monastery where their Byu Ha [Operations Command] camp is, they released them. The soldiers did not order them to carry through the forest, but they ordered them to carry through the villages and took them from those villages. The name of the village where they took the women is Ngan Kyeh village, but I’m not sure exactly because I have never been here before. It sounded like Ngan Kyeh village, but I’m not sure. It is very far from here to the west. It is a Karen village.

Q: Did they call those women or capture them?
A: They went and talked with the village head first. Some people didn’t want to go, but they were forced to go. They had to continue carrying for three days until they arrived at the place where there were no villages and then they were released to go. The men had to continue carrying to there. The women asked the villagers in the village where they were released to send them back step by step through each village.

Q: How did the women sleep?
A: They told the women to sleep in the same place [in the same temporary camp] but separate from them [the soldiers]. Their soldiers guarded next to that place.

Q: Did you hear if they raped any of the women?
A: I don’t know because we had to sleep in a different place from the women.

Q: What were the ages of the women porters?
A: Most of the women were between 30 and 40 years old, but there were some 18, 19 and 20 year olds. Most of the young women were 18 or 19 years old.

Q: What about the men?
A: The youngest of the men were 20 or 25 years old. There were no very old porters.

Q: How old were the oldest porters?
A: The soldiers did not care about the age. They even saw an old man with two children and they ordered the two children to stay away and pulled the old man to go with them. Those children were left there crying. It was in one of the Karen villages. That old man was about 60 years old, but they took him as a guide to show the way and ordered him to carry two backpacks. They thought that if they are comfortable, then that is fine for them. They shouted at the children to leave the old man, so the children were afraid and crying. When they arrived at their camp they released him. We felt sorrow for them [the two children] when we came.

Q: How far did you walk?
A: The distance was very far because it was a whole day’s walk. We had to start walking in the morning and set up a small camp in the evening.

Q: Did they only feed you boiled rice?
A: Yes, we only had boiled rice. They didn’t put salt in the rice, they just boiled it. It was tasteless. They fed each of us just a small tin of that boiled rice. They fed us one time in the morning and another time in the evening.

Q: Did you have to boil the rice yourself?
A: We had to pound it and boil it ourselves. The rice we pounded, we also had to cook for them. After we cooked rice for them, if they asked us to put the rice in their bowls, we had to do that also. They just washed their hands and ate. After they ate, we had to wash their bowls, gather them and put them in the right place. They were very rude because at that time we were in their hands so we had to fear them and couldn’t stay without fearing them. If we didn’t fear them they slapped our faces and we couldn’t speak anything against them. We had to do what they said and stay where they let us stay.

Q: Did they burn down any villages?
A: After we passed through the villages, we heard that the soldiers burned them down. After we fled, that man [indicating another porter who fled later] told us they had burned down the villages. I don’t know the names of the villages, but they are just on the other side of this hill. There are some small houses they burned down. They didn’t burn down the villages when we were with them.

Q: Did they go into the villages and steal things?
A: Yes, they stole, ate, beat and demanded people, even women.

Q: What about the chickens?
A: They stole the chickens to eat. Even if they had asked, those Karen people could not understand or speak Burmese, so they just caught the chickens, cooked them and ate them. We had to cut and cook them for the soldiers, but we could not eat it [the chickens].

Q: Did they shoot any villagers?
A: They didn’t shoot any villagers, but they did scold the villagers and shouted at them.

Q: Did they rape any women in the villages?
A: We did not see that in front of us, but maybe they did it in a secret place. Their behaviour and attitude was awful and they never had pity or a sympathetic heart. They [the Army] say the Army was founded by civilians, but they are not of the civilians because they only know how to oppress the people and to use their anger. They are carrying guns, so they want people to stay under their hands and do whatever they demand without thinking and eat what they provide without question. They always behave like that so we can’t do anything about it.

Q: Did the soldiers try to frighten you when you went with them?
A: Yes, they threatened us, like: "If you run to escape, the Karen Nga Pway [‘Ringworm’ - a derogatory term used by the SPDC soldiers when referring to the KNU or KNLA] will kill you and we also will shoot to kill you if you run. Ma Aye Loe Dway! [Motherfuckers!] Be careful with yourselves, you don’t need to think about going to run." If two people were standing up to urinate together not far from each other, they kicked us and shouted at us, "None of you stand up." They did not allow us to stand up. If they allowed one of us to urinate, we had to stand up very close to them to urinate. They did not allow us to urinate at the same time. They allowed us to urinate only one at a time. You can’t go very far to urinate, you have to urinate very close to your sleeping place. If we wanted to urinate while we were walking with them we had to wait until we reached the place where we sat down.

Q: Did the porters walk separately from the soldiers or between the soldiers?
A: They put a soldier between two of the porters while they were walking. Some of the soldiers went ahead and didn’t carry their backpacks with them. For us, we had to follow the group that went ahead of us and if we could not follow them they beat us with the butts of their guns, kicked us with their boots and slapped our faces.

Q: How many hours did they walk between breaks?
A: At first, we would get time for a break after walking two or three hours. After we came to this area it wasn’t the same. We couldn’t take a break, just carry up and down, up and down over the mountains. If we could not walk and joined them late, they ordered their soldiers to wait for a while, but we did not have a break time [once the porter group caught up with the rest of the soldiers, they just continued walking].

Q: Did they wait for you when you couldn’t carry?
A: Some people who were carrying were very far behind and faced problems, so they asked us to wait but the battalion commander told the commander to start walking again and we had to start again. We did not have much time to take a rest. We just waited a while and then started again. We did not have a special time to take a rest.

Q: Did anyone get sick when you were portering?
A: Yes, there were some sick people who were staying on the top of the hill [at the Army camp]. They threw the dead down the hill. The soldiers also left some people along the way because they couldn’t go on anymore, such as the people they had beaten and their arms were broken. We don’t know the people whose arms were broken, but there were two of them and they were from Meiktila Prison. The soldiers had beaten them with the butts of their guns. If people collapsed on the mountain, they beat them.

Q: Did they give you medicines if you asked for them?
A: They didn’t give us medicine or treat us. We went to ask them for some medicine to drink or smear on our wounds. My back is broken and split like this because I had to carry a lot of shells and because I am a Karen. If other people had to carry five shells each, I had to carry seven shells. They told me it was because of my Karen people that they had to face problems and the said, "Nga Loe Ma, Nga Pway, better to die!" [‘I fucked your mother, Ringworm’; Ringworm being the derogatory term used by the SPDC Army for the KNLA or KNU] I had to face problems even though I have no contact with the KNU, so I could not tolerate it anymore and I thought if we have to die, we will. Three of us then ran down the hill and passed through some very thick brush and crossed this river [the Moei River, border with Thailand].

Q: Did they give the soldiers medicine?
A: They said they did. We carried medicine for the soldiers who got sick. One of their Saya Gyi [‘Big Teachers’, i.e. senior officers or Non-Commissioned Officers] told us, "This is not for you, if you want to die, you die. We already see you as dead people."

Q: Do you know how many porters were left on the way?
A: There were two porters whose arms were broken and one porter whose forehead was cracked and another who was sick.

Q: How did the porter crack his forehead?
A: They said he fell down, but some porters said the soldiers had beaten him with the butt of a gun. The sergeant told the battalion commander he collapsed off the top of the mountain and his forehead was cracked, but really they beat him and it was broken. Because as we were carrying everything on our shoulders, if we collapsed accidentally off the mountain, our entire body would be broken also, not only our forehead.

Q: Do you know the name of the dead porter?
A: I don’t know the name of the dead porter because he was from a different prison. As for us, they took us to their Army camp and on the way ordered us to carry paddy from the villagers’ fields or huts. They ordered us to pound it for them after we had dug holes in the ground [to use as mortars to pound the rice in]. They fed us boiled rice and ordered us horribly.

Q: Did they tell you they would release you when you arrived at their Army camp?
A: Yes, they said they would release us as soon as they arrived at their Army camp, but when they arrived there, they said, "If we have to stay for 6 or 8 months, you also have to stay with us and you can go back when we go back." I just had two months left before completing my punishment but now I’d have to stay for 6 or 8 months there, it would be extra. As for the extra time, it would be better to run and escape because staying there I was starving and had nothing to eat or drink and my wounds on my back were very painful. Because my back was cut and very painful, I thought it better to run, so I organised some friends and three of us ran to here.

Q: How many days did you have to carry as a porter before you escaped?
A: We had to carry for 9 or 10 days if you include sleeping in the villages. They let us sleep separately from them, but when we started travelling, they ordered us to sleep together under the monastery.

Q: Which monastery?
A: One of the Karen monasteries, but we don’t know its name because we have never been here before. When we arrived at this Army camp [Pu Lu Dtu Army camp] we didn’t have huts, but they had tents with them. They gave us a very small piece of plastic sheet and we had to cover ourselves with that while sitting together in the same place. We had to sit with bent heads in the rain until morning arrived.

Q: Did they guard you when you were sleeping?
A: When they were sleeping they had some guards for their security. We couldn’t urinate when we wanted to or shit as we wanted to. They stopped us and were oppressive like that. If we wanted to urinate, we had to do it in the place where we were sitting. As for shitting, we had to do it in a plastic bag and throw it in the forest the next morning.

Q: Can you tell me how you escaped?
A: They had ordered us to cut bamboo and when they started to patrol on their operation to fight the rebels [KNLA], they asked us to carry paddy and heavy things. They were staying at the top of the hill and carried nothing themselves, and if we couldn’t carry they beat us. After we arrived at the top, they kicked us with their boots and beat and swore at us and asked us to dig holes in the ground and to pound the paddy for them. After that we had to boil the rice and had a small tin of boiled rice to eat, but they ate the rice which we had pounded. That is why we ran, we knew we were going to die soon and we couldn’t tolerate it anymore. If our wounds became worse and we asked for medication, they said, "Die if you have to, but we do not have medicine for you. We only have enough for our soldiers. We see you as dead people."

Q: Did they have a medic?
A: Yes, they have medics among the soldiers, but they did not give any medicine for our wounds. Afterwards we could not tolerate that so when they ordered us to carry water for them and pointed where to go, we thought, if they are going to shoot, let them shoot, and we ran down the hill quickly.

Q: Where?
A: At the frontline camp over there. We don’t know the name of the camp, but we slept there for two nights. After we slept there for two nights, we started to run down to here.

Q: How many people escaped with you?
A: Three of us, but another friend fled after we escaped because he couldn’t stay there anymore also. Four of us arrived here, but five or eight people ran from the top of that mountain. There are only three or four people still in the Army camp.

Q: Can you tell me the names of your friends?
A: They are "Naung Soe", "Tin Hla", "Myo Lwin" and "Than Htun" [not their real names; see other interviews]. Two of us are single and two of us are married. "Naung Soe" has a child and I have three children. All of us came here at the same time. One of us is a Kalah [an Indian], one is Karen and two are Burman. Three of us are from Mandalay Prison and the other one, "Naung Soe", is from Meiktila Prison.

Q: Did they see you escape and try to find you?
A: They told us that if they found us, they would kill us. They tried to find us, but we were afraid so we hid in some bushes. It took us one day of walking to come here. We started to run at 12:00 noon and arrived here in the evening.

Q: How do you feel about the KNLA now as opposed to what the Burmese told you?
A: If we compare them [the SPDC soldiers], the people here [the KNLA] are much better. They have more pity and sympathy than them [the SPDC soldiers] and treat us like their family. Really, they [the Burmese soldiers] are very bad and only have the attitude to oppress and torture us because they have guns in their arms. They never think about how to feed people, just how to force us to work. They kept us like cows and dogs, but the people here [the Karen resistance and villagers] do not divide us by our skin or appearance. They just deal with us as their siblings and eat, sleep and live in equality and they have good hearts.

Q: How were you treated when you arrived here?
A: We have had a good time here with the Karen people because as soon as we arrived, they called us here and gave us clothes and fed us rice. They cooked us enough rice to feed us and then gave us a very comfortable place to stay. They gave us some medicines for our wounds also. We have a good bed to sleep on. They have given us a good place because they have good character, they treat us as people from their country and do not separate us, they have pity on us.

Q: What do you plan to do now?
A: I think I will ask for help from the people here and then go back to my place.

Q: Do you dare to go back?
A: Yes, I have to go back whether they arrest me again or not, because if I stay here, one day I will die. I can’t be happy or provide for my family because my wife’s health is not good and she has heart disease. My eldest son is just 12 years old, the next one is 8 years old and my daughter is 5 years old and all of them have to beg from other people to eat. They can’t go to school and had to leave school because their mother has heart disease and she doesn’t have any relatives in the town she moved to. My wife lives in xxxx. My parents-in-law live in yyyy [village], Monywa [Sagaing Division] and it is very far from there [Mandalay]. My parents live in zzzz [in the Irrawaddy Delta] and I live in xxxx and they are very far from each other so we can’t contact each other.

Q: What will you do for a living when you go back?
A: I am a ground digger. When people want to build a building, I have to dig the holes for the posts. I got 300 Kyat per day for it and it is just enough for a day. I never have extra money because goods over there are very expensive. For one ‘bowl’ of rice it is 170 or 180 Kyat. We have to buy rice and other food to eat so that money is really not enough for us. The price is going up so we can only afford a little bit of food for ourselves.

Q: What do you think your wife and children are doing now?
A: The news I heard when I was in prison before I came here was that they have to beg from other people’s houses for leftover rice and rice soup. I had thought that it would be better if I could be released, so I didn’t care what happened to me and agreed with them to go to the place they sent me. The Army and the officials said as soon as we arrived there after carrying loads for them, they would release us. When we came there [to the Army camp] they told us that if they had to stay for eight months then we also had to stay for eight months. We could go back when they could go back. They didn’t release us to go back, but tortured us and gave us only boiled rice without salt in a small tin. They beat us and we didn’t have any medicine to heal our wounds and we could not sleep very well. If it rained, the plastic sheet they provided for us was not enough to cover ourselves and they didn’t make a hut for us. We just had to sit like that. It was also not easy to urinate or shit. We thought that it was the same as being dead, and it would be better to escape, so we made up our minds and ran to here. Every time I think about my family, I see my troubles and that my children are faced with troubles too, so I thought, if I have to die, it is better to die after I have had some good rice. We didn’t care whether the Nga Pway [KNLA] killed us or not, so we struggled to run here.

Q: How will you go back?
A: We really want to go back, but after arriving here we didn’t know which way we had to go. We don’t know the way, so we don’t have any ideas about how to go back. All of us rely on the Bo Gyi [one of the KNLA officers] and do what he asks us to do. If he has work he asks us to do it, but we apologised to him and asked him to send us back and to show us the way.

Q: Do you think the Army or the Police will arrest you again?
A: I need to stay two more months in prison, so maybe they will arrest me again, but at the moment, because of my wife’s health and the problems my children are facing, I would go back even if they arrest me. I don’t want to die here without any benefit, so I decided in my heart that I would go back. When I started to come here I was unhappy and when I arrived there [at the Army camp] I also had to face many problems, so I thought nothing was different there. Before, I tried to be patient and work for them [the SPDC soldiers] as I could and they said they would release us when we arrived at their Army camp, so I worked for them for two days at their Army camp also. I did everything they asked me to do.

Q: What was the situation when you were staying in the town?
A: When we stayed in the town all the civilians had to work to afford meals and if we were tired from working and drank alcohol and got rowdy and made noise, the police would come and arrest us. They sent us to court and sentenced us to jail. Sometimes when we were late in coming back from work and it was dark, they accused us of Maung Yake Koe Muh [committing a crime by doing something in the dark of night] and then arrested us again. All of the civilians have to face problems and we have to work hard jobs to earn money, so sometimes we get tired and came back late from drinking. Like me, I am a ground digger and sometimes I drink alcohol, then they said I was drunk and annoying people so they took me to the police station and sentenced me to jail. The police arrest us and send us to jail and when we arrive at the jail, they send us to work camps and order us to do what they want us to do. Some of the Chinese people can give money, so they have good places to sleep in the jail, but for the people who do not have money, they have to sleep on the floor with no mat. I would like to say that as we are human, we would like them to have sympathy and pity and do not divide the ethnic groups in our country and let all of us stay with love and peace.

Q: What else do you want to tell to other countries about your feelings?
A: If I give my thoughts freely about the SPDC, I don’t think they rule the country peacefully and with equality. They do not have pity on the people and do not act like parents towards us. Why do I speak like this? Because they are Thu Min Thu Kyin [‘their government for themselves’, the government helps only itself]. When they call the civilians, they don’t need to oppress them. If they need help, they just have to ask for help, but instead of asking, they torture, abuse and make problems for the civilians. They live, eat and sleep in very good conditions but we do not get good food to eat, just boiled rice, and we were beaten and made to carry very heavy loads. We want to ask them to have pity in their hearts, sympathy, see our needs and to change their rules and laws.

Q: What else do you want to say?
A: We have never liked this government because they don’t have good behaviour like our parents. They are the high leaders but they oppress the grassroots people, so we can’t agree with this government. We don’t like their policies also because they do what they want to do. They think they have power and weapons and they will do what they want and demand from the people what they want, beat as they want and kill as they like. They have this policy of no sympathy for other people, and we can’t agree with the policy.

Q: Do you have anything else?
A: I don’t have anything else to tell.

Q: Thank you very much.
A: Thank you.

______________________________________________________________________________

NAME:        "Than Aung"          SEX: M         AGE: 28          Burman, Buddhist, Day Labourer
FAMILY:      Married, two children, ages 1 and 3 years old
ADDRESS:    xxxx section, Pegu town, Pegu Division                         INTERVIEWED: 7/00

[He had been a prisoner in Lashio Prison in Shan State. He was interviewed after escaping from portering in Dooplaya District.]

Q: Do you have brothers and sisters?
A: I have three siblings. I am the middle one. I have one elder sister, who is 31 years old. She is already married. I also have a younger brother, who is 25 years old. At present, he is studying in school.

Q: What did you do when you were a child?
A: I started studying in kindergarten when I was five years old. I passed kindergarten but failed one year when I was in 1^st grade. I passed 2^nd grade but then failed three years in 3^rd grade and three more years in 4^th grade.

Q: What did you do after you were fifteen?
A: At first I stayed with my parents, and then I worked with my friends at any job we could find like masonry or cutting grass. When people sold things, I also sold things. When I was 20 years old, I got married and had two children. A friend told me there was a good job in Lashio and he called me to come there, so I went to xxxx in Mong Hsat [township]. My wife stayed with my parents.

Q: Why have you come here?
A: I was portering for an Army unit.

Q: Are you an ordinary civilian or what was the reason you were portering for the Army?
A: I had gone from Pegu up to Mong Hsat township near Lashio. I picked tea leaves and baked charcoal there at xxxx village. After I baked charcoal, I cut bamboo. One day, in the evening, I went to sit in the teashop with my friend. While I was sitting, the police who were patrolling said that the time was up [to be out on the streets]. When I turned around, I didn’t see my friend, he had run away and fled when he saw the police patrol come. I alone was arrested. The offence when the police arrested me was hiding in the dark [being out after curfew]. When they arrested me, they asked me, "Where are you from?" I told them I was from xxxx. They asked me what time it was. I told them it was still very early, but they didn’t agree. They punched me and asked me, "Why are you still out now?" I explained to them I was leaving the teashop, but they didn’t believe me. They punched me there on the road and took me to xxxx jail.

Q: What was the offence they charged you with?
A: They charged me with hiding in the dark, Article 42. It was past 9 o’clock at night and they had declared no one was allowed out after 9 p.m. I was arrested on March 24^th 2000. They put me in xxxx police station for three days. They fed me rice with a standard prison meal.

Q: Did they sentence you after that?
A: Yes, they passed the judgement in Lashio District Court. I was sentenced to more than one year at Lashio Prison. I was put in the prison on March 27^th 2000.

Q: What happened when you first entered the prison?
A: When we entered we had to sit and we couldn’t look up at their faces. If we looked up at them, they would beat and punch us. The first time I looked up, one of them kicked me in the jaw with his leg one time. When I got to the cell, the one who waited at the door kicked me in. He wasn’t a jailer, he was a prisoner who waits at the door.

Q: How did your day begin in the prison?
A: In the morning when we woke up and had finished washing our faces, we had to wipe the floors. After that I had to choose the rice [sifting the rice and picking out the husks]. In the evening we had to move all the old excrement from the toilets and put it on the plantation.

Q: What did they feed you in the prison?
A: When we arrived at Lashio Prison they fed us enough rice. They fed us bean curry and fish paste. In the evening we were fed Ta Ler Baw curry [boiled rice mixed with any vegetable on hand] and uncooked fishpaste. We got enough drinking water.

Q: How many times did they let you bathe?
A: They let us bathe only one time [each day]. They gave us only 7 bowls of water to use for our bath.

Q: Did people get sick in the prison?
A: There were sick people, but they didn’t treat them. They gave them only one or two tablets [of medicine]. When the prison officials thought they couldn’t work anymore, they were sent to the Lashio hospital. When they were sent to Lashio hospital their feet were shackled. They were also shackled to the bed in the hospital, they couldn’t move.

Q: What was the most common disease in the prison?
A: Most of the diseases were from drugs or itching [scabies]. I saw only these. Some people had very big wounds. I saw only one man die because he had diarrhoea.

Q: Are there women in the prison?
A: There is a different building for the women. There are about 300 women prisoners. Most of them were drug offences.

Q: How many prisoners are there in Lashio Prison?
A: I estimate there are over 8,000 prisoners [there are actually between 1,800 and 2,400 prisoners, according to other testimonies]. There were over 300 prisoners in our building.

Q: What offences are most common in the prison?
A: Drug offences are the most common.

Q: Did the ICRC [International Committee for the Red Cross] come to ask questions in Lashio Prison?
A: They didn’t come [they had already made their inspection].

Q: Were there any political prisoners in Lashio Prison?
A: I didn’t see them.

Q: How long did you stay in Lashio Prison?
A: I came here in May, so it was only over one month.

Q: Did you come to porter after you were in prison?
A: Yes. They called us from Lashio to here in Karen State to go as Army porters. We left from Lashio on May 24^th. We started leaving on May 24^th and slept one night in Mandalay on the 24^th, then on the morning of the 25^th we went to Toungoo Prison. We slept one night in Toungoo Prison and came to Pa’an from there. We slept two nights on the way. They sent us with big blue trucks. We arrived at Pa’an Won Saung 1. They left 50 prisoners in Thaton and the rest, 100 prisoners, they took to Pa’an Won Saung 1.

Q: How did you know it was Won Saung 1?
A: All the people from the prisons called it that. I saw it written, "Won Saung 1."

Q: How many prisoners came from Lashio to porter?
A: There were 150 prisoners. They limited the number of prisoners from Lashio who had to come to be porters. There are 150 in a group.

Q: Couldn’t you say something?
A: We couldn’t. We also didn’t have any money to pay [to get out of having to go].

Q: When they wrote down the names in the register, was there anyone who didn’t go?
A: Many people wanted to go. When they called us they said if the sentence was for one year, it would be reduced by four months. They told us, "We are releasing you from prison." After they said that, we were confused. We thought they had released us, but later it wasn’t true. They shackled our feet with iron chains and took us by truck. The car looked like a pig truck [trucks commonly used to transport pigs in Burma]. They closed the door and took us. There were 22 prisoners in each truck. There were no soldiers guarding us, there were three guards from the prison. They didn’t allow us to go to the toilet. They gave us one plastic bag for each of us and the one who had to go asked for it from them and we had to go inside. After we finished we had to throw it out, beside the car road.

Q: Did the prison give you anything when you left?
A: Lashio Prison gave us one blanket, one tarpaulin, the standard flat plate and slippers. They also gave us two sets of prisoner’s uniforms. They were not the ones we had worn in prison. They gave us blue uniforms when we went out [prisoners in Burma usually wear white uniforms].

Q: Did you bring the uniform here?
A: No, I didn’t bring it. The villagers were worried the Army would see the blue colour of the prisoner’s uniform, so they gave us civilian clothes and asked us to burn the uniforms.

Q: Do you have the blanket and plate?
A: I didn’t bring them. The warders at Pa’an Won Saung 1 confiscated it all.

Q: Please continue telling about it.
A: We arrived at Won Saung 1 at night and then they took off our feet chains. The dawn came while they were still taking them off. That morning, after they had finished taking them off, we had to follow the battalion.

Q: Were there other prisoners from other prisons like you at Won Saung 1 when you arrived?
A: Yes, there were. Some were from the 100 prisoners sent from Mandalay. They sent at least 100 prisoners from the other prisons, some form Moulmein. There were all about 500 prisoners there.

Q: Were there any political prisoners who went with you to porter?
A: No, they didn’t include the political prisoners.

Q: What was the most common offence among the prisoners?
A: Drug offences.

Q: Were there any Army deserters among the prisoners?
A: Yes, there were. There were about 20 from Lashio Prison. They are still staying with the column because they don’t dare to run away.

Q: Continue telling about it.
A: Early in the morning of the 28^th [May 2000], when they had finished taking off the feet chains, we were taken by trucks from an Army unit. We crossed two long bridges and before dark the trucks arrived at Kya In Seik Gyi. We slept there for one night. We kept going the next day and they forced us to carry baskets. They put the bullets and bombs they used into the baskets and gave them to each porter. They showed us the basket we had to carry.

Q: What did you have to carry?
A: They said the load I had to carry was mines. They were shaped like a rectangle [claymore mines, command detonated mines used to spring ambushes or for perimeter defences at camps]. They put 12 mines in my basket and put in 5 bowls of rice on top [7.815 kgs / 17.225 lbs]. I think it weighed about 20 viss [32 kgs / 70 lbs]. I couldn’t carry it. I couldn’t stand up myself with the basket. We asked them to hold it up so we could stand up.

Q: When did you leave from there to go porter?
A: We started a little after 6 a.m. on the 28^th and on the 29^th we came to the jungle. There is a big car road which goes into the jungle and we had to go along it. When we were walking there were many people like me who couldn’t carry. They carried bombs and other things.

Q: Do you know the battalion you had to go with?
A: Light Infantry Battalion #708. They told us that when they came to get us. I don’t know the name of the commander, but one of the officers with one star [2^nd Lieutenant] was named Myo Win.

Q: How many porters went with LIB #708?
A: There were about 50 prisoner porters who went with #708 [LIB]. There were only 7 porters in our column and about 180 soldiers. [SPDC battalions regularly divide into columns when on operations. His column had only 7 porters but many more soldiers. The battalion took 50 porters with them in all.]

Q: Who led the convict porters?
A: He is a soldier with 3 chevrons on his arm and one small star [sergeant major]. I didn’t know his name.

Q: How did the soldiers treat you?
A: At first, when they called us, they treated us well. They told us to live and eat as they did, but when we started to carry from Kya In Seik Gyi, they kicked our buttocks. When we couldn’t climb or follow them, they beat us.

Q: How did they feed you? Did you eat as the soldiers ate or separately?
A: They fed us separately and there was not enough. After one plate of rice we couldn’t get any more. There was only 1 milk tin of rice [a condensed milk tin] for three people. They fed us sometimes with raw fishpaste and sometimes with beans. They cooked for themselves in their mess tins. For us, they put it in an aluminium pot for each group of seven people. We ate little, but they ate well.

Q: Did anyone get sick?
A: Yes. People went to ask them for medicine, but they didn’t give it. Sometimes, when the porters had a serious fever, they were given half a tablet, but that was all. Some people couldn’t walk.

Q: What happened to the people who couldn’t walk?
A: When you couldn’t walk, they punched, beat you with a stick and kicked you from behind. I not only saw this, I suffered it myself.

Q: When could you take a rest in the jungle?
A: They didn’t have a time limit. If it was dark, we slept. We slept in the jungle. When we slept, the prisoners had to sleep in one group. After we were asleep, they took security beside us. If it rained while we slept, we didn’t have a tarpaulin. We had to sleep like that on the earth, on the grass. As for the soldiers, they built a shelter with their tarpaulin and they were comfortable. When their soldiers rested, I had to fetch water and cook. After they got up in the early morning at 5 a.m., they queued their troops and I had to carry the basket of mines again.

Q: What about when you had to pass urine or stool?
A: We had to do it there [where they sat].

Q: Did they say they would give you any money?
A: They told us they would give us 100 Kyat per day, but I don’t know if they [the other porters] got it. I don’t think they [the porters still with the column] will get it. There were big brothers who were imprisoned before us and some of them came back and said they didn’t get it.

Q: How many days did you have to carry for?
A: For two days.

Q: Tell me about the person who died on the path.
A: He was a Chinese sent from Lashio. I don’t know his name. He was a drug offender, but I don’t know his sentence. At first he was also carrying. He carried whatever they forced him to carry, but he couldn’t do it. They kicked, punched and beat him. Later, when he couldn’t carry any longer, they kicked his head and beat him with a gun. He fell down and was shaking. They tried to force him to carry but he couldn’t. When they couldn’t force him to carry at all, they kicked him with their heels. I passed him at that time. We asked the porters who came behind us, "Is there a young brother who fell behind?" They said he was dead. The porters said it to each other, I didn’t see it [see also Interview #4, Interview #7, and Interview #1].

Q: Were there civilian porters also?
A: I didn’t see that. They had some big weapons, very big. It looked like a blowpipe [a large mortar, probably 120mm]. They carried them on bullock carts which they demanded from Kya In Seik Gyi village. They also carried very big bombs and rice sacks. The column demanded 2 or 3 bullock carts. The villagers were not happy to go [the bullock cart owners have to go along to drive the carts].

Q: Why weren’t they happy?
A: When they couldn’t drive their bullock up a hill, the soldiers behind them said, "Drive like you mean it." Sometimes the nose harnesses [ropes through the bullocks’ noses used to pull them] broke, but the bullock still didn’t go. The Burmese forced them to work, they forced them to drive. They said, "If it is going to die, kill it and eat it."

Q: Did you see the soldiers give them any money?
A: I didn’t see that.

Q: Where did you arrive at?
A: From Kya In Seik Gyi we crossed over the mountains on the 28^th and slept one night at 18- Mile. We continued going on the 29^th. My legs were in pain and the wounds on my back were bruised. I couldn’t follow and I told them that, but they didn’t allow me to stop. They told me, "You go." They hit me on the back, they beat me. I was crying and telling them I couldn’t go. Before we reached Kyaikdon I couldn’t walk anymore. We were not so far from a village. My cheek was trembling badly. I told them I couldn’t carry anymore and I fell down with the basket of mines. They picked up the mines, the basket and me, then kicked me with their feet. When they saw I was tired, they pounded me on the back with their gun butts and I turned face up. They took off my basket and put it beside me. It is still painful when I am talking. They stepped on my neck three times and they kicked my buttocks many times. They left me like that. I don’t know if they thought I was dead and left me, because I lost consciousness and later I remembered nothing. I had been left there.

Q: What happened after you lost consciousness?
A: I lost consciousness in the evening, after 6 p.m. It was a little dark. When I regained consciousness in the morning I was in the flat fields and there were some huts. The big brothers from the huts in the flat fields helped me. One of them told me, "Yesterday we saw you on the path and brought you here." When he saw that I was wearing the blue prison uniform, he asked me, "Are you a Won Dan [‘servant’, meaning porter]?" I told him he was right and I explained my story to him. He asked me, "What are you going to do? Do you dare to go back the way you came?" They [the soldiers] had beat me and I was in pain, so I couldn’t go anywhere. He said, "You can’t stay here any longer. Their troops are moving about. If they know about you, they will kill you." That big brother gave me his torn shirt and sarong. He burned my prison uniform.

Q: What was their nationality?
A: They were Karen. They were talking in their own language and when I regained consciousness they fed me rice and medicine. In the village they said, "The soldiers also come to this village and in the forest. It is no good if they see you. You will be killed. It is also not good for us. You will go straight away to xxxx." [Some details of his escape are omitted here to protect the people who helped him.]

Q: How long did you stay at xxxx?
A: I stayed there for more than six days. When I had stayed there for three days, these brothers [indicating "Myo Myint" and "Phone Shwe"] arrived at xxxx. After six days the Karen soldiers arrived. When the Karen soldiers arrived, the villagers from xxxx told them a group of porters was staying there. They came to call us nicely.

Q: How did you know they were Karen soldiers?
A: The others told me. They also had guns and wore uniforms. I don’t know the name of the first unit which called us.

Q: How did you feel when you saw the Karen soldiers?
A: I was afraid. The Burmese soldiers told us this when they took us: "Don’t you escape. If you escape and the Karen soldiers capture you, they will cut your throats." They said that. They told us that because they didn’t want us to flee. They gave us this speech when they took us from Won Saung 1.

Q: How did the Karen soldiers deal with you?
A: They treated us well. They told us, "We are going to send you, tell us where you want to go." They were going to take us themselves. They called us to here. At first they didn’t believe us in their hearts. We were also afraid of them because they tied us with ropes at first. After they tied us we came to a small village. When we arrived, they untied the ropes and fed us well with rice. When we got sick they gave us medicine. Step by step, in the hands of these Karen soldiers, they sent us here.

Q: How many days were you tied up?
A: They tied us up for four days. They questioned us but didn’t do anything to us. They questioned us a lot, but they didn’t beat or scold us. They just didn’t trust us.

Q: Where did you arrive to?
A: We crossed to this side of the river where the Karen soldiers summoned a Karen man we called "Bo Gyi". We went with Bo Gyi and Saya aaaa. When we got here, the Saya [term of respect for teachers or leaders] from here gave us clothes and treated us with medicine.

Q: How many days has it been since you fell down until now?
A: Since May 30^th, but I don’t know what today is. It has been over one month. We left on the 28^th, and since then I have written it down. They sent me to xxxx on the 30^th.

Q: Do you dare to go back?
A: Right now, I can’t go back. For that reason, if there is work here, I will work and then save some money. I will go home when I decide.

Q: What kind of work can you do?
A: I can do masonry work.

Q: Does your wife know you are here?
A: She doesn’t know. I don’t have any contact with my home. If I had contact, I could go back.

______________________________________________________________________________

NAME:         "How Nan"          SEX: M          AGE: 20               Chinese Buddhist Farmer
FAMILY:       Single
ADDRESS:     xxxx town, Shan State                                           INTERVIEWED: 7/00

[He was a prisoner in Lashio Prison. He is ethnically Chinese and can’t speak Burmese very well. He is also known as "Kyaw Win".]

Q: Where were you born?
A: I was born in xxxx [town].

Q: Do you have a nationality card number?
A: Yes, but I don’t remember the number. The nationality card was not for xxxx [town]. We had moved back to yyyy [he got his ID card in yyyy where his parents live, he later moved back to xxxx].

Q: What is your education level?
A: I don’t have an education. I can’t read or write.

Q: Didn’t you study at a monastery?
A: No, I didn’t.

Q: Are your mother and father still alive?
A: Yes. They are staying in yyyy.

Q: How many brothers and sisters do you have?
A: I have eight siblings. I am number seven. The eldest is my sister. She is 45 years old. I am the seventh. My younger brother is 18 years old. My parents make hill fields and flat fields.

Q: What work did you do?
A: I stayed in town but we also have a house in a small village. I worked in a hill field. We planted corn and paddy.

Q: Are they big fields?
A: Yes, they are.

Q: How did you get here?
A: Ohhhh, what am I going to say? I went to the jungle from the town [to his village]. I went by Trology [small Chinese paddy-ploughing tractors used to pull carts]. I didn’t drive. Six of us went into the jungle because we had our homes in the jungle [near their fields]. Sometimes we carried rice and food when we went back and forth between home and the jungle. The Trology broke down on the path, so I slept on the path that night. In the early morning, an Army unit came and found us and arrested us on a drug charge. They were soldiers from Battalion #204. I forgot the name of the commander.

Q: Was the Trology your own?
A: Yes.

Q: What did they think when they saw your Trology broken down on the path?
A: I don’t know, they just accused me. They had arrested someone on the path for carrying drugs. It was very near to us. When they came back and met us on the path, they accused us. They came to accuse us of cooking #4 [slang used for all types of heroin, but is also one grade of heroin] and arrested us. We told them it wasn’t true, we hadn’t cooked #4, and we hadn’t done anything. We were working our hill fields honestly. We refused their accusations like that. Finally, they said they could find out with a medical check by checking our urine, so they ordered it. They asked for my urine and checked it. Then they said we smoked #4.

Q: Did they check your blood?
A: They didn’t check the blood, they checked the urine. They saw it in the urine.

Q: I am going to ask you honestly, don’t be afraid! Did you use drugs?
A: I didn’t use drugs. I didn’t sell it. They just accused me.

Q: Did you grow opium? If we show it to you, would you recognise it?
A: We know opium. There is a lot in the jungle, but we didn’t use it.

Q: Have you seen red and yellow opium?
A: Yes, there is a lot in my area.

Q: Do you know Ya Ma [the Thai name for methamphetamines]?
A: I have heard of it, but I have never seen it.

Q: When did they arrest you?
A: They arrested me on June 22^nd 1999. There were six people. It was in the jungle by Tain Pyu at Lawai Kaw. They went to arrest us in the jungle halfway to Nan Kan town.

Q: Did they get any evidence when they arrested you?
A: They didn’t get anything.

Q: Did they torture you when they came to arrest you?
A: Yes, they did. They arrested us and tied us up, then they interrogated me, "Is it true or not? Are you going to cook # 4 [manufacture heroin]? We received information that you are cooking #4." We told them that it was not true. We disagreed with them. They beat us. They tied our hands behind us with iron chain for two days and two nights and beat us. They didn’t feed us rice or anything. They didn’t even allow us to drink water. They tied us with an iron chain and beat us with a stick. They took a big stick like this and pressed it on our shins [rubbing up and down or pressing on someone’s legs with a stick is a common form of torture used by the Army and Police].

Q: Did they press on your legs with a log?
A: Yes, they pressed our legs but we told them it wasn’t true. When we became dizzy and lost consciousness, they sprayed us with water until we regained consciousness. We still told them it was not true. We answered them truly. They did that for two days and two nights.

Q: How many days were you in the cell before they tried you in court?
A: They investigated me for one month and when their findings were not true, they prosecuted me with Article 15. It means using drugs. They tried me in the district office in Lashio town and sent me to Lashio Prison. Lashio Number 1 camp. The sentence was five years.

Q: Where did they send you after you were sentenced?
A: We had to stay at Lashio Prison. I had arrived at the prison before they sentenced me and already stayed in Lashio Prison for 11 months. They sentenced me on May 19^th 2000 and on the 24^th they sent me to the Pa’an Won Saung.

Q: How did you get by in prison?
A: If people from home came and brought things, we could stay well. The people who came from home had problems. My house is near, so they came.

Q: What did you have to do in prison?
A: I didn’t have to do anything. The people from my house came and did it for me [paid the bribe so he wouldn’t have to work], so I didn’t need to do anything.

Q: What were the most common cases in prison?
A: They were mostly drug cases, the cases under suspicion and the people who were trading it who were arrested. The people who were selling drugs were arrested for real. Those people were imprisoned for many years and they had really done it. As for us, we were imprisoned for 3, 4 or 5 years, but they had only accused us. They had no evidence.

Q: Why do you think they accuse people who didn’t do it?
A: I can’t say about that. The people in prison were talking and they said that they [the SPDC] need people on this side [in the Karen State] because battles occurred very often in Karen State. So, they accused us and put us in prison. Then they called us [to come as porters]. I heard they needed porters in Karen State. That is why they accused and arrested us. The prisoners were telling each other that.

Q: How many prisoners were in Lashio Prison?
A: Over 10,000 prisoners [there are actually between 1,800 and 2,400 prisoners, according to other testimonies]. They were mostly drug cases.

Q: Why were drug cases the most common?
A: They were buying and selling it. I can’t explain it to you. When they [the soldiers] are travelling on the path, if they see people who are smoking #4 [heroin], they arrest them under Article 15. There are a lot of people suffering from this. The people who didn’t do it have also suffered. After they were arrested, if their families couldn’t pay, they were put in prison for five years. The people who had money escaped [they were released after paying a bribe]. They weren’t taken to prison.

Q: Were there women in prison?
A: There were over 300 women. They were mostly drug and prostitution cases.

Q: Were there any political prisoners in the prison?
A: There were no political prisoners. They sent them to Mandalay Prison. They didn’t keep them at Lashio Prison. They kept 17/1 [these are prisoners who have been imprisoned for association with opposition groups, making them political prisoners]. Now they are called the "Kywe Gaw unit". Many of them were arrested. The Kywe Gaw soldiers are also fighting the Army. After the fighting, the SPDC soldiers went to arrest the Kywe Gaw troops who were separated [the soldiers who had become separated after an attack] and put them in prison.

Q: What is the Kywe Gaw unit?
A: They are Shan. They are not from Taunggyi. They are from Tang Yan. They are the same as the Karen soldiers here. They have not surrendered. They are very popular and are still fighting [they are probably soldiers of Shan State Army (South) which does operate in the area of Tang Yan and does not have a ceasefire with the SPDC].

Q: How did you live in prison?
A: They fed us enough at Lashio Prison. They fed us bean curry in the morning and in the evening they fed us Ta Ler Baw [a rice porridge with vegetables]. The prisoners whose families came to give money to the prison don’t need to do anything. The prisoners whose families don’t come to give anything have to wipe the floor, clean, work on the plantation and are forced to cook curry.

Q: Explain to me how you suffered while in prison.
A: What can I say about that because we were staying close to our homes so we felt nothing. The other people suffered. As for me, my family came to do for me [pay the bribe at the prison] so I felt nothing.

Q: When did the prisoners have to work?
A: Every morning at 5 a.m. we went to work. At 11 o’clock it was time to eat so we came back to eat. After we ate rice, we had to go back and work again. They planted hill fields. The planted every kind of fruit. After that they fed the prisoners.

Q: Did they have medicine to treat the prisoners who got sick?
A: They gave the prisoners who got sick in Lashio medicine when they went to the clinic.

Q: Do they come to check your blood in prison?
A: No.

Q: Did you hear about AIDS or HIV in prison?
A: I didn’t hear of it. I only heard about sickness and scabies disease.

Q: Did they give medicine to the prisoners who got scabies?
A: The other building didn’t get medicine. In our building there was a Major [Burmese Army] who was sentenced to 10 years. He bought the medicine and donated it.

Q: Why was the Major imprisoned?
A: He had been making counterfeit Nationality ID cards. That is why they put him in prison. The court passed a judgement of seven years, but he had already been in the prison for three years, so it will be 10 years [he had been in prison awaiting sentencing for 3 years]. Before, he was the biggest person in Shan State making ID cards. I have forgotten his name. He is from Rangoon and a Burman. He was about 50 years old.

Q: Did they give you enough clean drinking water?
A: We could drink as we wanted. We had to fetch the simple water from the tank and put it in the water pot. Then we drank it. When the ICRC organisation came, we asked for clean water to drink. Before, we had to take a bath every two days with six cups of water. Then after ICRC came, we took a bath every day with eight cups.

Q: How did you sleep?
A: The people who didn’t get money from home had to sleep gathered together. We had to sleep 10 people in a six foot space.

Q: How many rooms are there in Lashio Prison?
A: There are 4 rooms for the men [in each building] and 5 buildings. There were 5 buildings for the men imprisoned and 2 buildings for the women.

Q: What was your building number?
A: Building #4. It was wide and about 250 people had to sleep inside. If we slept above [on a wooden platform raised above the floor; less crowded and more comfortable since many prisoners can’t afford to sleep there] we had to pay money to the servants who take responsibility for the prisoners. They ate a little [took a little money] for each of them.

Q: Did the ICRC [International Committee of the Red Cross] come to check Lashio Prison?
A: They came to check, I saw it. They came in 1999. They were English [Burmese typically use ‘English’ to refer to all Europeans].

Q: Did you know it was the ICRC?
A: I knew it.

Q: Before they came to check, how were the conditions in the prison?
A: Before they came to check, we didn’t get enough rice in prison. They fed us a little with paddy, grain and stones in it [very low grade rice with unhusked bits and small stones still in it]. They fed us like they feed pigs. After they [the ICRC] came to check, they fed us enough in Lashio Prison. We could choose our rice [sift it and take out the husks and stones].

Q: Did they feed you enough rice on the day the ICRC came?
A: Yes. Without grain in it. They cooked us curry with pumpkin, radish flowers and other things.

Q: Did they give you any new clothes on that day?
A: They didn’t give clothes. They called only the prisoners who they wanted to ask questions. They [ICRC] shared cheroots.

Q: Did you have to queue up and meet them in a group, or did only the ones they wanted to meet go?
A: We were queued up by roll and they [ICRC] watched us. Then they asked, "What is your nationality?" Then they called us out and asked us questions. They called us separately to the office and asked us questions. They called many people, but they didn’t call me.

Q: What did they ask the prisoners?
A: They asked whether we got to eat well before they came. They asked things like that. "Did you get enough water to take a bath?"

Q: Did the prisoners answer them truly?
A: They told them truly.

Q: What happened to the people who answered them truly when the ICRC left?
A: They [the guards] didn’t do anything to them.

Q: Did they feed you as well after the ICRC left as when they came?
A: We couldn’t get good food, but they fed us enough rice. For rice, they gave it to us regularly and we could eat as we liked until we were full. It didn’t include stones or grain. We could choose the rice. They ordered the prisoners to choose the rice [sift the rice and pick out the husks].

Q: Did the situation get better after the ICRC came?
A: Yes, they fed us better rice and we could take a bath comfortably. Before the ICRC came, only the people whose families came from home could take a bath well [with enough water]. If they wanted to take a bath they had to give 1,000 Kyat. They had to give 1,000 Kyat per month. At that time we also had to buy rice to eat. The people whose families didn’t come were very thin and hungry and many people died. After the ICRC came, the prisoners didn’t die from hunger. They treated us better, but if the family from home didn’t come and give money, they didn’t treat us better.

Q: How many people died from hunger before the ICRC came?
A: How can we say? They died very often. Many people died. Every two or three days one or two people died. I don’t remember the names of any of the people who died.

Q: Before the ICRC came, did the wardens tell you who would come and what to say?
A: They told us to tell them [the ICRC] truly. The big warden came to tell us himself. "They will come to ask you questions. Tell whatever has happened to you. If you tell it all, they will tell the higher leaders and you will get to eat well." The jailer from Lashio told us to tell like that.

Q: What is his name?
A: I forgot it. He told us, "Tell everything you want. We won’t do anything back to you. When they go back, we won’t do anything to you. If you propose it, you will get to eat well. Now they feed you as you all know [badly]. If you propose it to them, they will feed you well."

Q: So, was the Lashio warden a little kind?
A: Yes. He didn’t beat the prisoners much and he didn’t scold. We loved him, but how can we say it? We couldn’t speak to him. We stayed to ourselves in the prison and he stayed separately from us.

Q: When did they hand you over from Lashio Prison to the Army?
A: I left on May 24^th 2000 from Lashio Prison and arrived at the Army unit on May 28^th 2000. It was #706 [Light Infantry Battalion]. I don’t know the name of the commander.

Q: Tell me a little bit about your journey from Lashio?
A: We went from Lashio to Mandalay and spent one night there. From Mandalay we went to Toungoo and slept there one night. They sent 150 prisoners from Lashio. Finally we arrived at the Won Saung in Pa’an. When we left from Lashio they put our feet in chains. Some were heavy and some were light. The lightest weighed about 2 viss [3.266 kgs / 7.2 lbs] and the heaviest weighed about 3 viss [4.899 kgs / 10.8 lbs]. They chained us because they didn’t want us to flee on the way. We were chained for six days. They didn’t unchain us when we slept. When we arrived at the Won Saung and the soldiers called us, the police unlocked them. When we arrived there we met the people from Rangoon and from the other places, so there were about 600 prisoners in all.

Q: Were there political prisoners included?
A: I didn’t hear about that.

Q: Were there any soldiers who had run from the Army?
A: There were many deserters but they didn’t run [they didn’t escape later]. The corporals who ran from the Army were imprisoned for at least two years. That is why they didn’t run. I didn’t hear that they ran. Mostly, it was the civilian porters who ran away. The deserters didn’t dare to run.

Q: Did they say how much they would pay for one day?
A: They didn’t say. When the soldiers came to get us at Pa’an Won Saung, we heard they would give us money. They [the soldiers] told us. They said, "You will get 100 Kyat per day. If you go to work, you will get 100 Kyat per day." Yes, we heard them say this. Later, some people who had gone to porter and got sick came back and were staying at the Won Saung. We asked them and they said, "We didn’t get it. We were lucky we didn’t die." He [the man they asked] said the people who had been put in prison for many years fled. If they hadn’t fled, the soldiers would have sent them back to prison. We didn’t think they were going to force us like this. They said they would release us, but they called us and forced us to porter. They just pretended. They called only the prisoners who had had their case seen at a court of law. That is why we thought they would release us all. But, it wasn’t true. Finally, we had to come, porter, and meet these problems.

Q: The ones who got sick and came back to the Won Saung, had the soldiers treated them with medicine?
A: The people who came back said they [the SPDC] had sent them to hospital. We didn’t see it ourselves. The people who we saw were very thin. There were many people who came back from portering. There were over 20 people. They were also prisoners, but I don’t know from which prison. I saw them at Pa’an Won Saung 1.

Q: Did they give you slippers, blankets, tarpaulin and clothes when you went to porter?
A: When we were staying at Lashio Prison, they gave them to us. After the night when we arrived at Pa’an Won Saung, they [the camp guards] confiscated it. The people from the Won Saung, the jailers, took it. They told us they would give it back when the soldiers came to call us, but when the soldiers came, they didn’t give it back to us. The soldiers and the Major who came to call us were angry. They asked, "If you don’t give anything to them, how are they going to walk and sleep?" But they didn’t give it back.

Q: What happened after you arrived at the Won Saung?
A: I stayed at Pa’an in the Won Saung for two days. I think it was on the 28^th [May 2000] that they took me out of there.

Q: Who took you out?
A: The Army unit. They were #706 [Light Infantry Battalion], Company #4. I don’t know the name of the commander. They took people from our group and separated them and gave them to each of the units. They gave 50 prisoners to each unit.

Q: Where did you go after Pa’an?
A: They took us by truck to Kya In Seik Gyi. We slept there for one night. After we slept there, we had to carry as porters and come here [to an area near the Burma-Thai border].

Q: What did you have to carry?
A: I had to carry bombs. There were 10 big bombs in the basket. Each one was over 2 viss [3.266 kgs / 7.2 lbs]. It was about 25 viss [40.83 kgs / 90 lbs]. I couldn’t stand up, they had to lift it for us.

Q: Did the soldiers hold it for you when you sat down?
A: They had to hold it for us. I couldn’t sit.

Q: How many days did you have to carry for?
A: I had to carry for three days. We had to carry the whole day. We left early in the morning and carried the whole day.

Q: Did any battles occur on the path?
A: No.

Q: How did they feed you?
A: When they fed us on the path, we could eat as they ate. They fed us fishpaste. When we arrived at the Army camp, they fed us a little rice. Only a handful. They fed us 8 milk tins of rice for 13 convicts. It wasn’t enough. There was no curry